Methanol

[Neophyte]

Greetings to all:

I've just started researching this home distilling thing. Made a little and it tasted good and had the proper effect. I've read all over the internet and just can't get the straight scoop on the question of the danger of methanol in the distilling process.

I was glad to stumble across this forum. I've been looking for people who actually know about it and not just "scientific" reports.

Do I really need to worry too much about methanol?

Thanks,
Neophyte

[LeftLaneCruiser]

Welcome aboard Neo,

...
Do I really need to worry too much about methanol?
...

Well, that really depends on what you intend to do with it..

But stumble a litle further to the parent-site of this forum. There is so much info that it would take a post of three pages to answer your question.

Good luck,

KJH

[WhiteLightning]

yes you do. methanol is a wood alcohol generally used in science experiments and drag racing, it is commonaly distilled by heating up wood in a closed space without any air or water so basically like making shine only no mash just logs, or chips. then you distill the mash which is i believe what ur doing there will be bits of methanol that come out as the "heads" and possibly the "tails" but i'm not to sure on that it depends alot of temperature. Now, how much methanol you have is determined but the type of mash i.e. sugar or grain or other. i've noticed that there are more methanol oil's ( which is how they come off as) when using a grain wash, this is possibly because of the acids and scientific stuff in the grains that produce more methanol. anyway methanol is also used in a semi pure form (fusel oils, i believe) as a farm animal laxative. In people however it has been known to cause blindness, laxative qualitys, and super water retension. these are exactly "good" side effects, oh it also cause nasty hangovers. So in general, yes methanol is bad, and try to collect and discard as much as you can. I've also noticed that it produces a quite foul odour which i'm not very fond of. In the old days moonshiners who were out to make a buck or two used to sell what is referred to as "Popskull" and quite literally thats what it did, or at least it felt like that.

[The Chemist]

Sorry, whitelightening, I've got to clear up some of what you said.
1. Methanol comes out only in the heads
2. Methanol is not generally considered a fusel oil. Fusel oils are the higher alcohols, i.e. isoamyl, isobutyl.
3. Methanol alone has a pleasant, sweet aroma.
4. Any farmer who would give methanol to farm animals must not like them too much.

You SHOULD be concerned about methanol, but not overly anal! Just toss the first 50ml of a 5 gallon run, and you'll be okay.

[Rocky_Creek]

The Scotts don't even toss it. They recycle it as I do. The more sugar you use and less grain, the less you have to worry. If I had a 5000 gallon still and distilled on the grain, and drank the first cup that came out, I would worry. The average home distiller should not be all that concerned.

[The Chemist]

The Scotts don't even toss it. They recycle it as I do.

Well the Scots do alot of stuff that doesn't make sense to the rest of the world, God bless them.

Haggis......eeeewwww!!!

[possum]

Eat your innards boy, If ya dont eat your maw stuffed with lights and barley, ya can't have any blood pudding!

but truley, ditch the foreshots, If you must recycle, do it to the heads, but still remove the meth fraction.

[LeftLaneCruiser]

Haggis......eeeewwww!!!

Oh yes. You are a LOT better of with those fast-food hamburgers....




KJH

[The Chemist]

Haggis......eeeewwww!!!

Oh yes. You are a LOT better of with those fast-food hamburgers....

KJH

Hey, now, I'm in Louisiana!!! We have roadside crawfish and drive-thru Daquiri shops!!!

[KatoFong]

Yeah yeah, Chemist, and streets paved with gold...

[possum]

And Catfish bigger than yer leg.

MMMMMmmmm stinkbait+'shine!

[Watershed]

As far as I remember ( I haven't gone back to work yet so have access to the info ) the lethal dose for humans is about 50ml methanol. If you take it alongside ethanol though, the ethanol limits the damage done and increases the dose needed - the standard treatment for methanol poisoning used to be ( probably still is ) a 5% ethanol drip.
Mind you I've no idea at what point you start hitting eyesight problems.

I recycle my foreshots - and failed experiments as fuel for a beer can camping stove - I'm cooking my crayfish over high proof gin when I go fishing at the moment.

[possum]

Something to do with binding the enzymes up in the liver to the ethanol, and not allowing the breakdown of methanol into formaldahyde...I think...don't bet your life on it...throw away your methanol forshots

dont be affraid to cut deeper than needed...throw them away it's $2 a bottle.

[Watershed]

Can't disagree with that. I think the risk from methanol has been hugely overstated by 'the authorities' though looking to put people off distilling.

[possum]

Yep, watershead, and meanwhile homeless must shoplift STERNO and perfume, and rubbing alcohol,while food grade ethanol could be dispensed in pumps or jugs for $4 a gallon to fill the car or fix the delerium tremmens.

Why subsidise something peacefull like farming for fuel, when we can spend for bigger US military to guard and escort more oil?

OK thanks fellas, the tirade is over. Did someone mention methanol?

....... meanwhile homeless must shoplift STERNO and perfume, and rubbing alcohol,while food grade ethanol could be dispensed......

[Rocky_Creek]

Heaven forbid, I have followed the lead of a country whose name means whisky to most of the world instead of "theholymackerel" what was I thinking.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Related to possum's post, they actually are giving away free alcohol in Canada:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060104/od_ ... HNlYwM3NTc

[Rocky_Creek]

A little bit of reading and research is a hell of a lot better than repeating garbage between ourselves.

" Where Do The Heads & Tails Go?
Compiled on 26/02/2005 by Johannes van den Heuvel, Holland

Serge: Some distilleries, like Jura, re-distil all heads and tails endlessly.
So, I'm just wondering where does the methanol go at the end of the day?
In short, does it end up in our glasses, or does it get somewhat destroyed or muted during the process?
An important question because we don't wan't to change the meaning of 'blind' tasting, do we?

Olivier : First it would be interesting to know what kind of quantity (in volume or weight) of methanol is produced during the fermentation, this would give us an estimate of % at distillation. Perhaps the quantities are very low and unsignificant, especiallly at the start of a series of distillation (i.e: quality and purity is better at the beginning of a work season than at the end, IF, the tails and heads are not kept). In wine, for example, the law required that there has to be less than 2g/l of methanol. That level changes with certain grape varieties.

Charlie : All distilleries do this, and save the foreshots/feints from the last distillation before they close for their 'silent season', using them to start off the next season to achieve 'equilibrium' in the second distillation. Any methanol in the low wines will come over before the ethanol (smaller molecules), and forms part of the foreshots, to be re-distilled. After 12-15 distilations, the amount of methanol in the charge to the spirit still is such that tiny amounts will escape into the spirit cut. When this happens, the still is said to be in equilibrium, and the amount of methanol in the f&f receiver neither increases nor decreases.

Methanol is produced during fermentation, and concentrated by distillation.
It is in tiny amounts and can be almost excluded by the use of certain yeasts - so no fear of 'blind' tastings.
It's less than 2g/l (I don't yet know the exact amount) and it will vary slightly from distillery to distillery.
[I am indebted to Dr. Jim Beveridge for this explanation]

It is an interesting thought, Olivier, that the earliest distillations (i.e. when no feints/foreshots are added to the low wines) will be 'purer' - less methanol, and other compounds (higher alcohols/fusel oils). But the distillate may not have the character we know and love, which, after all, comes from 'impurities'! I shall be interested in your other thoughts - Klaus, does Jim's explanation make sense?

Serge : Thank you Charlie, this is very interesting, and confirms what we've been told by some distillers.
What I don't quite get (I'm sorry but only whisky gets smarter when ageing, I guess) is this:
- Methanol goes back into the wash stills, together with the whole foreshots.
- That will lead to more and more methanol being distilled and re-distilled, to the point where some of it will be 'taken' with the middle-cuts (the 'equilibrium' as you say Charlie).
- Since they will even re-use the 'old' foreshots (and feints) when re-starting the stills, this 'Methanol concentration process' will go on and on, after the 'equilibrium' point has been reached.

Three solutions then (or I should slow down on Brora :
1. The middle cut / spirit cut gets smaller and smaller, to prevent too much Methanol from entering the newmake.
2. More and more methanol does indeed enter the newmake.
3. There is a device that blocks the 'excessive' methanol between the wash and the spirit stills - but then the yield of the wash still gets lower and lower, as the useless methanol takes a growing share of the alcohol being 'treated' by it.

Or... The ammount of methanol in the wash is just too small to be significant
Even if you could concentrate it 500 times; it would remain too insignificant to have an effect.
But 2g + 2g + 2g +... + 2g/l = ??? Or there's something I miss? Hugely possible.

Klaus : Maniacs, some words about the re-use of foreshots and feints....
I would say that Charlie's / Dr. Beveridge's explanation is a very interesting one.
I have thought about it several minutes and tortured my head. Impossible, I said to myself, the amount of foreshots and feints must increase if it is re-used endlessly. (I think that is the point where Serge ended up.)
But then I stumbled about the word "equilibrium" and now I have understood it.

When equilibrium is reached, a considerable amount of foreshots and feints lands in the middlecut (our malt). In fact the amount is as much as is in the "beer" for the current distillation run. This way the amount of foreshots and feints does not grow. In other words, when equilibrium is reached, only water is extracted. If that is true, I wonder whether it is possible to make malt whisky (even though it certainly will not be allowed to be called so) by simply extracting water from the "beer" by other methods (mol sieves or columns).

And how about methanol? I know there is methanol in malt whisky. I have read it in several scientific papers.
The amount is very low and harmless. But I don't know why there is methanol at all. OK, it is produced during fermentation but PHD chemist Michael tells me again and again that is a sake that copper is used for distillation still because it destroys methanol. He really should explain this reaction in detail to me.

Serge : Hey Klaus, Thanks! So, instead of thinking 'they must have a way of getting rid of the methanol', we should just consider that the ammount of methanol - and all other compounds - in the wash (beer) is low enough to be safely and naturally incorporated into the spirit, once the foreshots are 'saturated' (equilibrium). That would make sense! In fact, maybe I (and Olivier) were sort of biased in our reasonning because we distil some fruits, which give a lot of methanol in the foreshots (which we then have to throw away).
That would mean that 'whisky' beer is much lower in methanol than fermented fruits. Is that true?

Davin : If I understand correctly, once equilibrium is reached the same amount of methanol is taken off as part of the middle cut as is introduced with the new wash. This methanol thus ends up being matured in cask with the rest of the cut. That must be the same for all the other impurities as well if the heads and tails are never discarded. In other words, a volume of all the volatile impurities equal to that introduced by each new wash is included in the middle cut of each final distillation and makes its way into the casks as part of the new make to be matured into whisky. In other words, the net effect of distillation is to remove the excess water and solids only, but everything else makes its way into the whisky in the same amount that was introduced with the new wash.
Charlie, Klaus, am I missing something?

Serge : Exactly, that is how I understood it. You only have explained it far better, Davin.
Can't say that I am too lucky that methanol and other components with high vacuum pressure as well as fuseloils make their way into the malt. But if it improves the taste ...

Charlie: One thing that Jim Beveridge repeated several times was that 'whatever you put into the wash still (in terms of chemical compounds) has to come out - as low wines or spirit, pot ale or spent lees'. The compounds are first developed during fermentation, although some are changed during distillation (acids to esters, etc) - mainly by the action of copper. So such methanol as has been created during fermentation is concentrated during distillation, and since it comes off first, in the foreshots fraction, is excluded and re-distilled. As you say, the amount of methanol increases (over about 15 spirit-still distillations) until there is so much that some 'escapes' into the middle cut/new make. This is the point known as 'equilibrium', after which the amount of methanol being redistilled neither increases nor decreases. Does this make sense?

Klaus : If I think at our recent discussion about direct and indirect firing of stills I must admit that Charly's, Davin's and my explanation is a little bit simplified. Distillation with re-use of foreshots and feints is not simply extracting water and solids. Chemical reactions occur during the distillation. I think some of those nice esthers, aldehydes etc. are only produced in the heat of the distillation process. To explain what this means for reaching equilibium is too complicated for me using the English tongue. Why? Even the next approximation: distillation with re- use of ... is removing water and solids from the wash + chemical reactions of the wash during the distillation is not exact. By adding foreshots and feints the ratio of several important compounds is changed and chemical reactions work different.

Charlie : My understanding is that equilibrium is achieved early in the still run (since methanol is a smaller molecule than ethanol, so comes off first). When a certain level of methanol has been created by redistillation, some begins to 'escape' (Jim Beveridge's word) into the saved spirit, thus 'balancing' the amount of methanol in the f&f receiver: it neither increases nor decreases.
I am interested in your friend's suggestion that the copper 'destroys' methanol. Can you ask him for more info?"

[The Chemist]

Death has been reported to occur after ingestion of 30 ml of methanol. If you have 2g/L methanol in your scotch, each 1.5 oz cocktail contains one tenth of a possibly lethal dose. That's way too much for ME to mess around with. I ain't drinkin' it! ALL homedistillers should be encouraged to toss the first bits. Better safe and sighted than sorry.

[possum]

Chemist may not like my medicine bottle collection ,

but we agree on this 100%

That's way too much for ME to mess around with. I ain't drinkin' it! ALL homedistillers should be encouraged to toss the first bits. Better safe and sighted than sorry.

[Tater]

yep what holy said