Sugar Wash not sure if it is working

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:08 pm

Hey guys mixed up my first batch thursday evening. Folowed directions as stated on yeast packet. First night not much happened friday airlock seemed to go every second or two. today not much activity at all to the point I think I did something wrong. The only thing I did was open the lid on saturday to make sure the wash was not to hot. I have a heater that does a great job of maintaining temp when I checked the temp it was 84f which according to the yeast is perfect. Any ideas or am I just rushing it? I talked to the guy where I got the yeast and he said opening up the fermenter is not that big of a deal like with wine or beer. The yeast is turbo 48. Any ideas are welcome. Chub

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:54 pm

Something is wrong, trubo's usually take off with in half and hour and after a few hours they should be off gassing so much the airlock won't sit down. You'll have to explain exactley what you did, how much sugar, how much water, what pitching temperature and so on for anyone to help you out.

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:18 pm

Ok I put 16 pounds of sugar in the bottom of the fermenter,Next I boiled 2 gal of water and mixed the water and sugar until it was totally clear, it was yellowish but no sugar granuls at all; next I filled the pail up to the 25liter mark and waited for the temp to get to 90f the package says 104 where I got the yeast said to wait till 90 so thats what i did. Next I slowly poured the yeast in stiring it vigorassly with a spoon droped in the heater and put the lid on. It did bubble a little when The lid was put on but I really did not watch it to much, that was thursday about 8:00 The next morning when I got up for work the temp was down to the high 70's so i pluged the heater in. Kept a close eye on it all day and it seemed to be doing well bubbling alot airlock rattling ect, it stayed at 84f all day. Today I get up expecting great things temp still 84f no activity, So even though I did not want to I lifted the lid and checked the temp to make sure it was not to hot [thinking my stick on thermometer may have been grossly off] used a digital thermometer 84.8 stired it alittle fizzed alot and put the lid back on. Barely no activity if I listen closely near the fermenter it sounds like it is working in there. Is there a way to tell if the wash is [wash] or if it can be salvaged. Not sure where I wnt wrong but I would love to know. Thanks alot for all the help so far The packing tool works great ,I got my cooling water pump worked out with the help of the link on putting a bypass loop ect. I really do appreciate everyone who has helped me in the last several weeks. Chub

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:59 pm

So you have a heater in the wash? You said you are using airlock. If it sounds like its working then it probably is. Take the heater out of there and seal what ever hole you made for the cord. Use some packing tape and wrap it tightly around the lid to make sure it is sealed. If you are fermenting it in the house the temperature will be fine, you don't need to heat it, room temperature is just fine. What are you using as a fermenter? I think your only problem is that the lid is not sealed and the CO2 is escaping somewhere with less resistance then the airlock. Tape up the lid and see what happens. If you put your ear up against the fermenter you should hear in working.

norcal · Post by **norcal** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:43 pm

I think Knucklehead is on target. Seal it up and let the air lock do it's thing.
If you need to heat it, spring for a brew belt. I love mine when my "project" gets exiled to the garage.

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:53 am

It is just a standard pail from brewhaus. I put the heater in because the room is about68-70f the heater cord goes thru the top with a bung as does the airlock. I will try taking the heater out and sealing the lid better. I did move the pail around a little last night without taking the top off and it built up pressure quickly. I guess this should be done in about 7 days correct? Chub

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:32 am

Not sure if this will help but I took a reading with my hydrometer when I was working on the fermenter. When the temp in the vial got to 68f I put it in spun it waited a little while and the reading was about 38 oechsle.

canadianmoonshiner · Post by **canadianmoonshiner** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:15 am

My feeling is that you have too much sugar (19% alc potential) and not enough oxygen. If it's still slow, try aerating it. Don't just stir it, that won't put oxygen into the wash. Pour it from one container into another. It should foam up real good. Do this for a couple days then seal it up.

Also, instead of boiling water & pouring over sugar, boil the water WITH the sugar and some acid for about 30 minutes. I use about 10g citric/malic/tartaric blend. This will invert the sugar and make it more digestible for the yeast.

Also, a simple sugar wash needs some nutrient. I use 50-75g DAP. Try raising a family on coffee & donuts. They need some veggies

CM

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:20 pm

Thanks guys I think it is starting to work the airlock has been rattling ever since I did what you said CM. Did you say to do this for a couple of days? I started this on thursday does this mean it will be about 7 days from today or do you just wait till the airlock stops bubling? Thanks Chub

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:05 pm

#1 turbo's don't need any additional nutrient
#2 You don't need to add acid when using turbo's
#3 Turbo's can easily handle that much sugar without a problem

canadianmoonshiner · Post by **canadianmoonshiner** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:42 pm

knucklehead said: #1 turbo's don't need any additional nutrient
#2 You don't need to add acid when using turbo's
#3 Turbo's can easily handle that much sugar without a problem

Oh, didn't know. I don't use turbo's (1118 & baker's). Maybe I should do that when I run out of nutrient. Simpler procedure and less crap to remove later. Good excuse to make more vodka?

I think was right about aerating it until things are going well. That was the main problem, right? Or at least the solution.

Are turbos really that much faster? I'm getting tired of waiting 10 days.

CM

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:43 am

if it doesn't work yet, I would add water (if your jug is not full yet)

I wouldn't let the temperature rise.

and try to aerate for a day or so

otherwise I've no clue what's going wrong.

-better trying then trowing it away-
stoker

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:18 pm

It has been bubbling ever since I aerated it over 24hrs ago 1 to 2/3 times per second very consistently. It never got really violent just very steady. Does this seem like it is on the right track. Should I areate again today? Now just wait till the airlock stops then is it done? Thanks again this is great it is starting to work. Chub

possum · Post by **possum** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:23 pm

I think you are on track. After bubbles stop check specific gravity if you have the device. I always do a tiny taste to check for un-digested sugar.

I have heard good things about turbo packs, but never used them myself.

Good luck Chub

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:18 pm

canadianmoonshiner wrote:
Are turbos really that much faster? I'm getting tired of waiting 10 days.

CM

Turbo's will ferment quite violently yes. Lots of people don't use airlocks and some turbo packs will say not to use an airlock because they off gas so much they can blow the airlock and or lid right off. A turbo pack will state on it the time it takes to ferment to a specific % but that time does not allow for the die down of the wash. The majority of the alcohol is made with in the first few days of fermentation so I assume there information is correct but the wash will usually peter out slowly for another few days. I have tried Turbo's as well as EC-1118. A Wash with 18% potential using Turbo's will finish in 7 days and be ready to run. A wash with the same potential Using EC-1118 is sitting right behind me and it has been going since December 22 2005, lol. Both will ferment well below 1.000 and have a final content of 20% ABV.

FireH20 · Post by **FireH20** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:09 pm

I've done 2 washes now, both with Turbo48, and got about the same activity as you describe. The first one came out to 13.5 ABV. Neither one had the violent activity others have described - maybe I didn't aerate enough.

norcal · Post by **norcal** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:31 pm

Here's my two cents:

I agree with CM, mabey too much sugar. But it should have taken off any way.
Boiled or distilled water tends to be oxygen deficient. I am leery of exposing the wash to possible contamination any more than necessary after it gets down to pitching temp. I have poured from bucket to bucket before but only right after removing from the kettel, while still hot.

I always just shake the hell outa the wash

(using 6 gal plastic bucket W/air lock) several times before pitching and once about 1 hour after pitching turbos. Do Not shake after 24 hours if using a air lock!!!

What a mess!! I've had em blow the air lock about 3 feet and spew a fountain of sticky stuff to the celing.

Makes wife none too happy!

Don't get em too hot. Turbos will generate heat, especially in a large batch.

I'v used several different turbos, including turbo48. I had good luck with all. I find it hard to justify the extra cost unless you are in a hurry. I do think you get a cleaner finished product if going for a neutral spirit using the turbos and sugar run through a reflux. I have pshed some batches over 20% by adding sugar on the second day.

Good luck!

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:45 pm

I still disagree that it is to much sugar. Look on the package of turbo 48, I think it says they can handle up to 18 lbs sugar for 25 liters of total wash and this is the only quantity I have ever done. I agree that they are costly to use and that is exactly why I push them to make every ounce of alcohol I can, to get my money's worth out of the. To use Turbo's to go ferment a 14% sugar wash doesn't really make sense unless you are in a hurry. Even bakers yeast is up to that task. Aeration may have been the key problem. Contamination, I doubt it very much. Even it the was had been contaminated, dumping a pack of turbo 48 in there the "good solder" would have taken over quit quickly no doubt. There's not much that can go wrong in a turbo wash. Even the aeration fact puzzles me unless all of the water was boiled. If you do as the packet states, boil X amount of water, dissolve sugar and add X amount of cold water. Pitch yeast, even if you made no attempt at aeration the cold water should have supplied plenty of air for reproduction.

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:07 am

Turbo yeast do work well. I think I've tried them all now (the Gert Strand line anyway). What I don't like about turbos is the distillate is hard to clean up. Last weekend we ran a couple stripped batches of turbo wash through the reflux still. The final product was 92-93% . It was fairly clean but still had a slight moonshine taste to it when cut down to 40%. This might be okay for some, but I like my vodka to have no taste or flavour whatsoever. I can't seem to totally clean it up by refluxing. Maybe some of you are going to say reflux it more to get it up to 95%, been there and done that still with slight off tastes. So anyhow we got it slowly dripping through the carbon filter. I know some of the fellows here say there's no need to filter, but I have never yet got a turbo wash distillate totally clean by distilling alone.

I think the next time I do some sugar washes I'm gonna use EC 1118 and some tomatoe paste and shoot for a lower % wash.

possum · Post by **possum** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:13 am

Haven't used turbos, but for a stinkey sugar wash, I ran in potstill, I soaked low wines on carbon, filtered and redistilled. Product was ok after that. UR if the stuff you made dosent clean up compleately, you might want to try running it refluxed after the carbon step.

Just an idea.
We all have different standards and ideas about what makes a good product.

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:25 am

The carbon cleans it up well there won't be any problem there. I already had a taste it's perfect. The final distillate isn't that really skanky or anything, it only has a slight flavour left in it. If you rub some on your hands and let the alcohol evaporate, I can't smell anything left. But there is a slight off taste.
Another thing I'm thinking with is to stop recycling tails in the sugar washes, the tails are loaded with skank. I think in the future I might just make the cut at 40% or so on the strip run and shut off the still and toss whats left.

jbrew9999 · Post by **jbrew9999** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:09 am

UR, on your next run, I'd suggest "yeast energizer" (mixture of DAP, yeast hulls, and B vitamines) instead of tomato paste. I noticed a big difference in the wash. I'm not sure how much it actually affected the distillate but If you like the results, you could always try tomato paste later to see if it is just as good and save about 50 cents per batch.

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:00 am

I make those yeast hulls myselve. yeast that sank to the bottem of my jar or new baker yeast. I take that yeast and boil it, cool it and ad distilled water, sugar and nutrients, a perfect yeaststarter or as plain nutrients

I've ordered two sachets of yeast, and I'll get them next monthday

It's really strange your wash doesn't work

stoker

canadianmoonshiner · Post by **canadianmoonshiner** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:27 am

Have you checked the pH? I have made lots of fruit & berry wines and found that yeast performs much better in an acidic wash.

http://www.grapestompers.com/articles/m ... cidity.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:09 pm

that should be no problem if it's made from sugar and turbo yeast.

and your water quality has to be very bad to have such an influence.

stoker

Chub · Post by **Chub** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:52 pm

Hey guys I just did a hydrometer reading. The last one was sunday it was 38 oechle. I just finished one now it is -6 oechsle. My meter does not have sg readings so that is why I did give it in that. Should I check again in two days to see if anything changes? What reading should I expect it to get to. Thanks Chub

possum · Post by **possum** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:06 pm

I don't know what the units on your hydrometer mean, but try tasting a teaspoon, if you taste sweetness, its not quite finnished.

canadianmoonshiner · Post by **canadianmoonshiner** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:55 pm

Chub, looking at your recipe: 16 pounds sugar in 25 litres, you should get 17% abv when it is done. Your measurement of 38 oechle must be equivallent to balling or brix (% sugar by weight?) or about 22% abv. Was your wash warm when you took this reading? A wash warmer than 60F will give a high reading (the hydrometer sinks lower).

The 6 oechle reading means there's 3% alcohol still to be produced (If it was taken at 60F... if warmer, you have farther to go). It sounds like your wash is progressing nicely. Let it settle down for a few days then syphon it into your boiler.