Cleaning

[michaelb]

I use sugar and ferment in 55 gallon drums. I'm looking for an easier way to sanitize. Does anyone have a suggestion, maybe something that would work in a spray bottle, possibly a contact sanitizer.

[TEC]

Iodophor is a good sanitizer. just use caution as you do not want any on your skin and it will cause permanent damage to the eyes if you get any in them.

[Aidas]

What's wrong with good old campden tablets? Easy to use, relatively cheap, no toxicity, no burning of skin, sanitizes well...

I don't see any drawbacks.

Aidas

[Bujapat]

Cheap and easy : a solution of potassium metabisulfite.
Thats what winemakers use...and I use it so!
Rince well material after cleaning with that.

[TEC]

A quote from my local brew shop.

Many people come into the store with preconceived ideas about brewing: things they have learned from friends or grandparents, or procedures heard in passing. This is all good, because it often means less that we have to teach them here in the store. But one thing that many people want to do, which I always try to discourage, is sterilize with bleach.

Let me start by saying that when I first started brewing, that was all that we had, and I used bleach very happily for many years. It is not a terrible way to sterilize, but nowadays there is such an easier, better way to go that it seems foolish to use bleach. Let me explain.

Iodophor is an iodine-based sterilizer. The Iodophor we carry at Main Street is a food-grade, restaurant-quality sterilizer. It is also used in the local milk dairies outside of Hillsboro, or so I am told. It is a very safe, benign solution to work with; and without further ado, here are the pros and cons of Bleach and Iodophor.

Bleach should be diluted in water at a rate of about 4 Tablespoons per 5 gallons. The rule of thumb with bleach is that if you splash the water and smell chlorine, it is going to "sterilize" the equipment that you soak in there. Iodophor is diluted at the rate of one Tablespoon per 5 gallons. At these levels, bleach takes 30 minutes to do its job, Iodophor take only a minute or two, and I have gotten away on many occasions with dipping and splashing equipment in the Iodophor for only a few seconds (although I cannot recommend this!). 30 minutes vs. 2 minutes. Round 1 goes to Iodophor.

Bleach needs to be rinsed off after COMPLETELY before coming in contact with beer. Most substances on earth (roses, apple pie, B.O.) is detectable to the human nose in a concentration of "parts per million." Chlorine is detectable to us in "parts per billion." This is an order of magnitude greater in sensitivity. What this means is that IF you leave any residual bleach/chlorine behind -- in your siphon tubes, on your plastic bucket, anywhere -- you will know it. So, if you do use bleach, you must (after thirty minutes) turn on the hottest water in your bathtub and rinse, rinse, rinse the inside and outside of everything for quite awhile to remove the slimy bleach residues. Iodophor (used at the proper concentrations) is a no-rinse sterilizer. Soak your equipment for a few minutes, pull it out of your Iodophor solution and it is ready to use. (Although I always give fermenters and carboys a quick splash of clean water to get rid of excess iodine puddles at the bottom of them. But in no case do you have to worry about rinsing every square inch of surface like you do with bleach.) Lots of scalding rinsing vs. little to no rinsing. Round 2 goes to Iodophor.

Chlorine is chemically reactive to some metals, particularly stainless steel. This means you CANNOT use bleach or chlorinated cleaners in kegs or chillers or pots or anything metallic. Iodophor is non-reactive all around, no worries. Round 3 - slam dunk - goes to Iodophor.

The cost. Bleach is cheaper, this is true. Iodophor (at its most expensive) costs $3.00 per 4 ounces. It gets much cheaper (per ounce) as you buy larger-sized containers. But that $3.00 vial, diluted down, can produce 40 gallons of sterilizing solution. And by the time you factor in the cost of hot water to rinse the bleach, the cost of your water and sewer bill, the time spent waiting for bleach to sterilize and the hassle of rinsing it off, those few saved pennies are probably lost in the process. Round 4, I call it a tie.

We will always have those that insist on bleach, and this is fine. But for the ease of use that Iodophor offers, I cannot see how anyone can insist it is the better sterilizing solution....

[Aidas]

I don't think anyone here was recommending bleach as a sanitizing method -- too risky, and has the same problems as the solution you described, which can burn skin.

That's why I think campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite or potasium metabisulfite) is the best way to go. Safe, easy, cheap.

Aidas

[Big J]

Here's a good webpage on various methods of sanitizing:
http://www.grapestompers.com/articles/sanitation.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And some more info on Iodophor:
http://www.bayareamashers.org/content/m ... dophor.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers,
J

[pothead]

I don't think anyone here was recommending bleach as a sanitizing method -- too risky, and has the same problems as the solution you described, which can burn skin.

That's why I think campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite or potasium metabisulfite) is the best way to go. Safe, easy, cheap.

Aidas

I use bleach(diluted). I have heard others here use bleach also.

[Aidas]

I was referring to this thread, when saying that no one has recommended using bleach. Now that pothead mentioned that he uses bleach, I stand corrected.

In any case, I stand by my original advice, which is to use campden tablets. Two reasons: bleach is caustic, dangerous to lungs, eyes and skin, not to mention any clothes you might get a drop or splash on; and secondly, because if you're even a bit sloppy, and don't rinse out all of the bleach solution, you're creating an environment that is extremely hostile to yeast (obviously this is more important in mash preperation than anywhere else).

However, the real advice that needs to be given here is: whatever floats your boat. If you like using bleach, and it doesn't screw up your mash or distilling process, go nuts! If you've got kids around the house and don't want to risk playing around with serious chemicals, use something more tame, yet just as effective.

Aidas

[TEC]

Aidas Said:

That's why I think campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite or potasium metabisulfite) is the best way to go. Safe, easy, cheap.

I think the original question was for something that could be used as a spray sanitizer.

[MyDBear]

You want easy, it dont get any easier than this, Use the campdon tablets. Tablets must be crushed to use, but this ensures the proper dosage and assists in their dissolution. The active ingredient in Campden tablets can be purchased bulk from most winemaker suppliers under its chemical name, potassium metabisulfite. For sanitizing bottles, primaries, secondaries, funnels and other equipment, two crushed tablets dissolved in 1 gallon of water and put in your spray bottle will suffice.Campden tablets come in various sizes and doses, so inquire if not packaged with instructions. Do not rinse equipment after sanitizing.

[KatoFong]

This probably wouldn't help for something like a 55 gallon drum, but I use bleach to sterilize my fermenting equipment and bottles and have never had problems with it. I find it's easy enough to remove afterward (I rinse the carbooy until the chlorine smell goes away...usually takes three good rinses) and it's cheap and readily available.

[possum]

Dilluted bleach in a spray bottle has been ok for me,but I hot rinse well after. FYI, bleach shouldn't be used on S.S. , as it promotes corossion. Be sure if you use bleach that you
1 dillute it
2 rinse it all off.

Plastic and glass bleached and rinsed are ok, but S.S. will pitt and corode faster with bleach, Im not 100% sure about copper, but I think it blackens with bleach.

[michaelb]

Thanks for all replies. I was hoping to find a contact sanitizer. I have used all of the other methods. I have found that making a 55 gallon (400lbs)solution, allowing it to sanitize, and dumping it down the driveway, in my gated community, is a hassle and draws unneeded attention. Does anyone think that the Idophor solution will be effective if sprayed on the surface, maybe in a more concentrated solution?

[DBM]

michaelb;
I've always used 55 gal drums. Just take a waterhose and rinse them out good. Then install a 55 gal garbage bag (they sell them at tractor supply and other commercial supply places). One box will last for years. I also double bag each barrel just for insurance.

[TEC]

michaelb,

Read the Idophor link provided by Big J.
It states the Idophor just needs a 60 sec. contact time, no rinse and is undetectable at double strength.

[pothead]

Aren't those bags made in factories with all kinds of nasty chemicals, and touched by all kinds of people that just got done itchin their nuts or pickin their nose or wipin their asses without washin their hands?


How about instead of dumpin it all in your driveway, why dont you install a spigot onto the bottom of it, and drain it into a sink drain or some other drain in the house,garage,etc... I bought a couple spigots from here...
http://www.grapestompers.com/product_th ... ubcatID=46" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They also make filling the boiler very easy when you put the fermenter on a shelf or something taller than the boiler, push a hose onto the spigot, then drain it into the boiler.

[hornedrhodent]

Thanks for all replies. I was hoping to find a contact sanitizer. I have used all of the other methods. I have found that making a 55 gallon (400lbs)solution, allowing it to sanitize, and dumping it down the driveway, in my gated community, is a hassle and draws unneeded attention. Does anyone think that the Idophor solution will be effective if sprayed on the surface, maybe in a more concentrated solution?

There's no need to make up 55gal of solution with metabisulphite. The sterilisation is done by the SO2 gas which is given off when you mix it with water. Simply put a litre or two of water in the bottom of the drum and chuck in a couple of teaspoons of metabisulphite, close the lid and wait an hour or two. Do this just before you put down a brew. I usually rinse out the fermenter but some sources say it's not necessary.

p.s. Dont take too big a sniff of the gas.

[TheMidnightRider]

What I've been doing is taking the foreshots I collect and sloshing them around in my fermentation vessel (5 gal plastic). I figure there's not much that can live in 85% alcohol. It's only in there for a minute or two, and while it might affect the alcohol (I wouldn't redistill it after contact with plastic) I'm sure that it isn't going to affect the plastic for some time. (Now that I think of it I could just save the same foreshots and use them repeatedly). For your big 55 gallon drum, I see no reason that you couldnt spray this on (although it makes nasty smellin fumes). then again I am a newby and if I were you I would wait until someone more experienced gives a little feedback on this.

[AllanD]

Bleach needs to be rinsed off after COMPLETELY before coming in contact with beer. Most substances on earth (roses, apple pie, B.O.) is detectable to the human nose in a concentration of "parts per million." Chlorine is detectable to us in "parts per billion." This is an order of magnitude greater in sensitivity.

Though I don't want to get my self labeled as a "quibbler" so soon after joining the forum...

the difference between 1ppMillion and 1ppBillion isn't
"AN order of magnitude", but rather THREE orders of magnitude

"Order of magnitude" is just a fancy way of saying "factor of 10", or
"ONE decimal place", just wanted to clarify that.

For further reading on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The mention of meta-bisulfite above does have some repercussions...

First that many brewing yeasts are not tolerant of SO2.
The same can be said for some of the specific distilling yeasts.
However virtually all cultured wine yeast strains will tolerate SO2 in fairly high levels

Next:
The dissolved SO2 can carry over in distillation and it's annoying to have to get rid of it....
Though contary to some texts I've seen that mentioned SO2 in distillate, you CAN get rid of dissolved SO2 in distillate...
Add chalk (CaCO3) to excess (a tablespoon per gallon), (I'll leave precise reaction information to someone else) But the Chalk reacts with the SO2 (Which forms (weak Mineral Acid)Sulfurus Acid (Not to be confused with Sulfuric) in aqueous solutions) forming Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum) which is for our purposes, insoluble in water ethanol solutions....

So you add the chalk, which liberates CO2 Gas, and then filter out the Excess chalk, then leave it sit several days, the Calcium Sulfate
will precipitate out as small needle-like crystals, which you can again filter out.

Another side benefit of using this process is that the crystalizing gypsum
will dehydrate the distillate to a small degree as the Gypsum takes up it's "water of crystalization".

BY THE WAY, don't use sticks of "blackboard" chalk because they aren't actually "chalk", blackboard "chalk" is usually moulded sticks of Gypsum!
(and if that isn't a tiny bit ironic in the context of this discussion I don't know what is:)


AllanD

[muckanic]

A couple of thoughts:

Sulphur-containing gasses (SO2, H2S) are just as obnoxious as chlorine gas. All of these gasses evaporate fairly readily at room temperature, but the problem is that the consumption of the original metabisulphite/hypochlorite salts is slower. Chlorine can react with any polyphenols (eg, tannins) in the brew to make even more obnoxious compounds, assuming that it doesn't prevent fermentation. Chlorine is an oxidant and most sulphur-derived substances are reductants, so the two will cancel each other out, provided the quantities can be got exactly right - which they probably can't. Most of the sulphury stuff should be scrubbed out during fermentation, but I still like that chalk trick. Note that adding such alkalis to the boiler will hydrolyse esters and may or may not be a desirable thing, depending upon how much flavour is being aimed for.

One no-rinse approach I personally like is peroxide, aka oxygen bleach, as it is easier on my nose than iodine. This has the advantage of converting into water and oxygen rapidly after it works, but the disadvantage of being an oxidant and thus mildly corrosive to metal. As is iodine for that matter, which is reputedly used unrinsed on metal dairy equipment. A lot depends how much of a stainless alloy content this drum contains.The big constraint in this case is that I get the impression that the drum can't even be drained? which would make me think twice about iodine or sulphur as well as chlorine.

[Pieterpost]

What I've been doing is taking the foreshots I collect and sloshing them around in my fermentation vessel (5 gal plastic). I figure there's not much that can live in 85% alcohol.

well, it's better to sterilize with 70% alcohol. More germs are killed with this percentage. It appears that a certian percentage of water is needed for alcohol to exert the best sterilizing effect.

[AllanD]

Most of the sulphury stuff should be scrubbed out during fermentation, but I still like that chalk trick. Note that adding such alkalis to the boiler will hydrolyse esters and may or may not be a desirable thing, depending upon how much flavour is being aimed for.

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't suggesting adding chalk to the wash, but rather to the finished distillate.

Unless the SO2 is noticable in the distillate neutralizing it isn't necissary.

there are many other acids present in wash that would likely block the effectiveness of any such attempt to remove the free sulfate.

Unlike CO2, SO2 is still very soluble even in 80% distillate and other than the chalk method, (which SFAIK is my own invention) I know of no other way of dealing with it.

The process should mainly be of interest to anyone distilling "failed"
batches of wine that have been treated (probably over-treated) with Potassium Metabisulfite, then subsequently discovers that the resulting distillate reeks of SO2....

The beauty of Calcium Carbonate (chalk) is that the two resulting compounds are a gas (Carbon Dioxide) that will politely bubble out of the way and an effectively insoluble (0.24g/100ml H2O@20'C) solid, that will politely precipitate out and sink to the bottom. The additional fact that the solid in crystalizing will take 2Mol of water with it when it forms the precipitate crystals is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

No other carbonate compound will work because the next more soluble sulfate (Potassium Sulfate) that could be formed is 45-times more soluble in water, most sulfate salts more than 100times more soluble. (Most more than 30gms per 100ml!)

I just hope this is useful to someone....

AllanD

[muckanic]

="AllanD". The process should mainly be of interest to anyone distilling "failed" batches of wine that have been treated (probably over-treated) with Potassium Metabisulfite, then subsequently discovers that the resulting distillate reeks of SO2....

Although some of the fermentation practices going on around here are enough to make one's hair curl. I have heard of people dumping the entire contents of a several months old, autolysed, primary ferment into the boiler and hoping that the still will separate the good stuff. Also, one thing an acquaintance of mine occasionally does is to distill denatured EtOH that has previously been treated with metabisulphite - and your trick would seem to be just the ticket there as well.

The beauty of Calcium Carbonate (chalk) is that the two resulting compounds are a gas (Carbon Dioxide) that will politely bubble out of the way and an effectively insoluble (0.24g/100ml H2O@20'C) solid, that will politely precipitate out and sink to the bottom. The additional fact that the solid in crystalizing will take 2Mol of water with it when it forms the precipitate crystals is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

Prolly would be an idea to dehydrate the chalk in an oven first. The question occurs, however, of whether the SO2 would simply evaporate off without too much of the alcohol going with it or (in a 95% ABV situation) whether too much water vapour would be dragged in.

[AllanD]

You really raise an excellent question, that of course I don't know the answer to...

I don't know if the dissolved SO2 is hydroscopic, though I doubt it.

I do know from experience that if you try to wait for the SO2 to simply out-gas that much (or all) of the alcohol will evaporate away first....

I also know that increasing the alcohol content of the water alcohol solution doesn't seem to reduce the solubility of the SO2, because
SO2 gas unlike CO2, IS soluble in ethanol... which is might be why
it is actually listed as a denaturant?

And as for calling it a trick? pleace call it a "process" instead...
and until I find proof that it's someone else's prior art I'll continue to believe it's my innovation:) I know I developed it independently
and I know I've "published", the big question is has someone else published the process before me...

I'd just love to be able to call it the "D... process"

BTW there are several old posts (carried over from the "old forum")
where someone had a "sulfur" problem related to using sulfured
molasses for making rum... this MIGHT be useful to them
provided the problem in their distillate is SO2 and Not H2S (Hydrogen sulfide)

Remember that the usual description of SO2 in solution is a smell of
"burnt match", but "rotten eggs" is hydrogen sulfide... however I've met several people who cannot smell the difference between the two and describe both as "rotten eggs" or simply as "sulfur-ey".

remember as well that some yeast strains are well documented
as being H2S producers (Red Star's "Montrachet" leaps to mind)

I just hope that my "process" helps someone.

AllanD

[Enlikil]

For the iodophor I have noticed a new kid on the block in all 4 of the brew shops i go to.. I forget what its called but it seems to be plane ole iodine /ipdophor..
Also on the iodophor topic, it will sanitize as long as there is ANY hint of color. in the water

[hornedrhodent]

="Enlikil"
For the iodophor I have noticed a new kid on the block in all 4 of the brew shops i go to.. I forget what its called but it seems to be plane ole iodine /ipdophor..
Also on the iodophor topic, it will sanitize as long as there is ANY hint of color. in the water

Can you also use it to test for complete starch conversion?

[level Joe]

You can use iodophor to test starch conversion?

[oldpete]

go for a product called star-san. its an acid based product, can use in a spray bottle. i found some stuff from a farm supply store that is an acid based milk house sanitizer. cheap, requires short contact time, only a couple min. no rinse needed. as long as the ph stays below 2 it is still good.

[jim81147]

I use this all the time . 30 seconds contact time , economical , easy to use and no staining( once mixed)

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products ... star%20san" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow