Easy question for you pro's

Enlikil · Post by **Enlikil** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:02 pm

I have 3 questions.....
Question 1:
(in reguards to a reflux still) Liquide managment..
Everywhere i read its says to bring the column into total equilibrium.. for at least an 30 mins to an hour. before removing the Foreshots and heads.. What tempature will this be at? having not done it before I am having difficulty imagining that first step.
I guess i need someone to explain the first bit of it to me ... becuase clearly I'm missing something.I been asking myself, how will i know i'm in total reflux for an hour. will my temp be in the 140's at first? when in total equalibriam? or do i bring it to 172, then go total equalibrum for 1 hour?

Question 2: My column was 48 inches but i'm cutting it back to 38 inches about 35inches of working height (2 inch dia). becuase of spacing .. I do know that at 48 inches i had no problem Condesning water. (so in theory i should be able to condense the ethenal becuase its cooler right? ) I wonder if it will work the same 10 inches shorter.

Question 3: when i do a water run, should i be using Distilled water? (will that keep it from getting slimmy) or just use normal water and Clean it out really good.

I think thats it.....
Thanks for any help

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:52 pm

1) wait and see... there is no exact answer because all stills are different. The temperature will vary based on where your thermometer is. It'll also vary based on the contents of the vapor. if you have a reflux still then start with the reflux all the way open and the takeoff closed. everything will be going in a loop and the temperature will settle out close to the boiling of whatever is the predominant component of the vapor. or around 78C...

2) 38 will work just fine... the extra height can come in handy tho...if you can rig it so you have the option of making your column taller when you want to make neutral spirits... smooth....

3) you should be making distilled water... and checking for leaks and seeing how it all works.. Then get a jug of cheep wine and run that through...don't drink this stuff tho... it'll taste bad and probably have a lot of crap from the building process in it...then clean clean clean. Make your column spotless once and its not too hard to keep it clean...

possum · Post by **possum** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:53 pm

Welcome Enlikil ,
glad you are on your way. I can help a little, but I dont have your kind of still. You don't need to use distilled water, the steam will distill ok and you shouldnt get any deposite of minerals in your column. But do use clean water.

Full reflux with your still type liquid management means that you are heating the boiler, and you are sending ALL of the condensed spirit back down the collumn. Equilibrium means that you are fireing the boiler, and you are cooling all of the vapor, and sending it all down the packing collumn. The concentration of your alcohol is getting stronger and stronger at the top of your collunm. When the process has gone on long enough , your tempature will stabilize, whatever temp that is, and then my friend, after you let it stay in that condition for the specified time ,you are ready to Slowly take out the foreshots a drip at a time.

Thats all I can say to help.
What kind of liquid management still do you have ?
Offset head, nixon stone, or some other kind ? just currious

Enlikil · Post by **Enlikil** » Mon May 22, 2006 1:07 pm

I have a bokabob style i think. (will try to find the pictures)
Basicly i have a 48 inch column (45 inches of packing) 2 inch diameter, then it goes into a reduction T that splits off to a gate valve that runs over to a liebig condenser (someone gamve me a pointer whhile desingning that i mayh want to try vapor managment so i built it into my design, thanks that someone

)
The part of the reduction T that goes straight up just has a 15 inch 2 inch condenser with a helix coil (moonshiners worm).
I piped the cooling water in through the bottom of the lieghbig, then up through the top condenser. .
I used a 2 inch Stainless steel Union, to Set my column into my Stainless steel keg.
So i only have a 2 inch hole in the top of my boiler but i only plan on making sugar washes.
Although so far i have only boiled water in it.
I didn't get any leaks. At least none that i could find, How the heck do you see steam leaks? I ran it for an hour and tested out all my valves and colling Loops.
I put a block on the top of it and didn't see any steam coming out.

Loooks like this kinda

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Swag · Post by **Swag** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:51 pm

In order to get your column into total reflux, after you acheive a boil, reduce your boiler heat! I cut mine in about half. Never run your rig full tilt except on a stripping run.
When you finally get your column equalized at a given temperature, say for instance 74 degrees C, and it’s nice and stable, then you can start to slowly decrease your coolant flow. The less coolant you have going to your reflux coil, the higher your out take temperature will be. Adjust it a little at a time and let it stabilize. It takes a few minutes so don’t be in a rush.
Any liquid that emerges before you get to 78.4 is heads and should be put away in your feints container. If you have a bunch of liquid coming out at 78.1 let it flow. Those are your higher alcohols and you want to separate those from the good stuff. Get a little spoon and taste and smell everything coming out so you get a good idea of the different phases of a run.
If you still smell or taste heads, no matter what the thermometer says, don’t start your main run. Side note: This can be a problem with some turbos since the heads seem to get into the whole run.
The whole point here is to take your time and do a slow run at a reduced heat in order to maximize your purity.

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:26 am

Swag wrote:In order to get your column into total reflux, after you acheive a boil, reduce your boiler heat! I cut mine in about half. Never run your rig full tilt except on a stripping run.
When you finally get your column equalized at a given temperature, say for instance 74 degrees C, and it’s nice and stable, then you can start to slowly decrease your coolant flow. The less coolant you have going to your reflux coil, the higher your out take temperature will be. Adjust it a little at a time and let it stabilize. It takes a few minutes so don’t be in a rush.
Any liquid that emerges before you get to 78.4 is heads and should be put away in your feints container. If you have a bunch of liquid coming out at 78.1 let it flow. Those are your higher alcohols and you want to separate those from the good stuff. Get a little spoon and taste and smell everything coming out so you get a good idea of the different phases of a run.
If you still smell or taste heads, no matter what the thermometer says, don’t start your main run. Side note: This can be a problem with some turbos since the heads seem to get into the whole run.
The whole point here is to take your time and do a slow run at a reduced heat in order to maximize your purity.

What would happen if someone were to run the whole run at 3500 watts?

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:09 am

I use near the same still...

My column is 41" high, 37" under the output so I think 35" would work.
My still is quite different : coolant pipes are higher in the column and I have separeted valve to control coolant water flow in the pipes independently from condenser water flow. You can see drafts on http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 53&start=0

I agree with Swag post. I find equilibrium around 75°C, by regulation of both water flow and heatin' power (gas in my case). When 78°C reached and first ethanol drops collected, I try to maintain equilibrium playin' with heat and coolant flow. In the case of sugar wash (for purest alcohol possible) I try to maintain this state as long as possible. This isn't too difficult since the still seems to find his equilibrium by himself...

Possum, if I run my still at full power, temperature increases and purity decreases. Even if coolant flow is at max, T° increases if I don't reduce the heat. I obtain then a fast strippin' run... I never tried this for a whole run, so I don't know if an "higher equilibrium" would be possible workin' in this way... Generally, when I see T° climbing above 82 - 84°C, I reduce the heat and/or increase the coolant flow... Except to collect tails or when usin' my still as a pot still.

possum · Post by **possum** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:32 am

I think the one above is for you pothead.

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:50 am

Sorry, I thought Pothead and wrote Possum!

Not drunk at this time of the day however!

Swag · Post by **Swag** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:58 am

Pothead queried:

What would happen if someone were to run the whole run at 3500 watts?

This is an interesting question and one many beginning distillers don’t fully understand.
In order to obtain full advantage of a column, the maximum number of theoretical “plates” or temperature boundaries must be achieved. For this to be accomplished the column needs to be in a state of equilibrium.
As the vapor rises through the packing, it comes in contact with condensed distillate flowing back down the column. At every contact there is a process of distillation taking place where the higher boiling point components of the vapor (water and fusils) are condensing and separating from the lower boiling point components (higher alcohols and ethanol).
This process is most efficiently accomplished by slowing the vapor speed down so more distillation can take place as the vapor rises up the column. Think of the vapor getting a better scrubbing the slower it goes.
With a slower vapor speed, more plates are developed which indicates better separation within the length of the column. Vapor speed is a product of heat input to the boiler and column width. A wider column will allow the same volume of vapor to rise at a lower speed than a narrower column. This is why we like 3 or 4 inch wide columns.
Reflux ratio also plays a part in determining your number of plates. The more liquid you return to the column, the more distillation takes place. The liquid cools the vapor and is essential to the formation of plates.
Adjusting your heat, reflux ratio and output is a balance that is different for every still. The general rule is the more reflux you apply (with a given vapor speed) the higher the purity will be. This means that your output is greatly reduced. And that’s why runs of 15 hours are common.
Running a 2” column at 3500 watts expands and reduces the number of plates in the column. You may only get 2 or 3 plates at that high vapor speed. If you reduce the power to, say, 500 watts you would be able to develop many more plates.
Speed, quantity and purity. Pick any two but you won’t get the third.

For a much better and more in depth explanation of this theory, go here: http://homedistiller.org/theory/refluxdesign/steps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow