Cooling without running water

[Aidas]

I've often seen posts where people say that they are using a bucket of water to house their cooling coil (without in/out flow of cooling water), and simply make sure that the bucket capacity is bigger than the boiler capacity.

Well, after returning to the parent site, and searching the forum, I simply haven't been able to find enough information for my problem. The parent site had a fine and dandy calculator for coil length, but it was with the assumption that there'll be flow through the bucket. Also, after reading more, I'm starting to doubt the conventional wisdom about boiler/cooler capacity, and to believe that the heating element bears more importance.

Anyway, here's my setup: 20 liter copper alembic heated by a natural gas burner. At present I'm using the cooler (copper bucket with coils) that came with it. It's very pretty, but small, to my mind. I'm running water through the cooler at a rate of 50 liters per hour (relax, Lithuania has plenty of water, and I've got my own well)

I was thinking about making a coil, place it in a 45 liter tub and forget about running water. Now the question arises, how long does my coil tube need to be? Will this work, or is my water going to heat up too much, and I'll need to replenish it with cool water on a regular basis?

BTW, the reason I want to do this, even though water is plentiful and costs me nothing, is that during the winter I'll have problems with the outflow water freezing on my walkway (somehting I don't want), and I don't want to put it down the drain, because pumping the septic out DOES cost.

Thanks for any help.

Aidas

[Watershed]

My coil's four turns in a 30cm diameter, coil height of 45cm. There's half a meter of lyne arm before that. The Bucket holds 12l, the still a mere 7l. I don't change water during runs - though I do stir it once in a while.

[theholymackerel]

Aidas: It's true that a coil container that's equal or larger than the boiler size doesn't require runnin' water.

Watershed: I've found that I have better luck if I DON'T stir the coolin' water. The water will form into layers based on temp. At the end of a run the top layer of water is way too hot to touch and will burn, but the distillate comin' out is still cool and when ya touch the bottom of my coil bucket you can feel that the bottom layer of water is cool still.

[AllanD]

Putting water into your septic system has no effect on how often you'd need to get it pumped, that is entirely a function of how much "solids" you put into the system, and even that can be
partially dealt with by adding purpose made preparations of "digestive"
bacteria (The Commercial product Rid-X that's available in North America)
that reduce the solids into liquid and less solids...

This presumes that when you say "septic system" you mean more than a large concrete tank. (North american equivelent is a simple "holding tank")

a true "septic system" in american speak includes a "leach field" to disperse the liquids, so only the solds need be pumped out.

AllanD

[Longhairedcountryboy]

Also, after reading more, I'm starting to doubt the conventional wisdom about boiler/cooler capacity, and to believe that the heating element bears more importance

I think this is true. I recirculate water from an 18 gallon container. (Sorry, I'm not quick with the meteric conversions yet and I don't have my conversion calculator handy) The more heat I put in, the more heat I need to take out. Doing a stripping run with high heat requires me to change the cooling water at least once during the run. Doing a slow run with less heat and with the same volume and alc content wash, I don't need to change the water at all. I think you are on the right track with that thought. I don't know how to explain it mathmaticly, but I have seen some info on the thermodynamics of the heat exchange. I believe Harry is the guy to talk to about the technical info, maybe. (Forgive me if I'm wrong on that)

[Aidas]

Thanks for the advice. I had a new coil made for me yesterday. It's huge (compared to the one that came with the still originally). 30 cm. wide, 50 cm. tall. I'm not sure how long it is, but I think it'll do.

By the way, aland, a septic tank is simply a tank that is within a septic system, i.e. a large container within a system to get rid of shit. Mine is the type that you need to pump out, because it's not certified as biological sewage treatment, even though the bacteria that I use cut through the shit so well that I could pump into the river (I don't).

Aidas

[Watershed]

Whilst we're on the subject - frequently on TV programmes & films etc I've seen the coil arranged horizontaly. Surely that's a case of deliberate misinformation as I can't see it working well - the spirit would pool in the lower coil sections and have to be forced out by the pressure of the incoming vapour

[Big J]

One thing to also think about is the temp of your distillate leaving the coil. If you just do the bucket with no circulation of water, the temp of your exiting distillate will rise quite high over time as the temp of your cooling water rises. Some people don't really mind, but if you do mind, its something to consider. If you use an eprouvette immediately after your cooling coil, then you'll have to some major temp correction with your alcoholmeter towards the latter part of your run.

What I did was to use a bucket with my coil, and then have a separate bucket by its side. In the second bucket was an aquarium pump that pumped the water into the bucket with the coil. An overflow tube returned the water to the second bucket. When it got so hot that it was really throwing off my alcoholmeter, I'd dump the second bucket, and refill it.

Good luck.

Cheers,
J

[hornedrhodent]

By the way, aland, a septic tank is simply a tank that is within a septic system, i.e. a large container within a system to get rid of shit. Mine is the type that you need to pump out, because it's not certified as biological sewage treatment, even though the bacteria that I use cut through the shit so well that I could pump into the river (I don't).

Aidas

I'd better not say on this site what a 'septic' is to an Australian.

[AllanD]

Here in the states in SOME locations there are houses on small lots
that aren't on a sufficiently large property to have a proper "leach field", so they simply have an underground concrete tank with an access cover
that must be pumped out every year to 18months.

It is not possible to get a building permit to build such a system
(let alone a simple "outhouse") any more in any location that I am aware of.

On larger bits of property a dispersal system for the fluids stretches the interval of pumping the tank out to as much as 5-7 years (Though building codes in some area requiring enmptying the tank every two years anyway)

If your system only has a "tank", yeah, I'd be real concerned about
simply discharging cooling water into and thus overloading your sanitary disposal system.

Have you considered building a closed-loop cooling system?

as for what "septic" means in ausie? I'm not afraid....
I know what you guys call a bologna sandwich with cheese
and mayo, so how bad can "septic" be?

AllanD

[CopperMan]

Whilst we're on the subject - frequently on TV programmes & films etc I've seen the coil arranged horizontaly. Surely that's a case of deliberate misinformation as I can't see it working well - the spirit would pool in the lower coil sections and have to be forced out by the pressure of the incoming vapour

I've always wondered that too when I watched the dukes of hazzard? I dont think it would work being the coil on that still was huge.

[nanosleep]

How about watering the yard rather than pouring it down the drain? If you don't have enough yard, a closed loop system would probably be the way to go.
Since your cooling water is isolated from any distillate you could even use an automotive radiator. A large truck radiator with electric fan would probably cool quite well. Naturally you want to be VERY careful that you have no leaks between the cooling water and the distillate. Automotive radiators may contain lead. If you want to avoid lead altogether you might find an all aluminum radiator. These will be harder to find in the typical junkyard. Air conditioning condensers might also be a source for water-to-air heat exchangers. If your climate is fairly dry you can get a big increase in cooling capacity by misting water on the outside of the radiator.

[Aidas]

Nanosleep, I don't mind watering the yard during the non-winter months, but the whole idea is that during winter, I don't want to create an ice-field on my walkway or on the grass.

I was going to try it out this weekend, but had to take the wife and kid to Vilnius (the capital) for a Simply Red concert, thus turning the whole weekend into a sort-of touristing thing...

In any case, when I try it out, I'll let y'all know how it worked, whether the cooling water heated up, and to what point.

I'm going to experiment with the system by doing the first run lazy-style, i.e. no stirring, etc. That is, unless it really heats up. Then, if the need arises, I'll start tweaking it to see how I can better it with minimal effort.

Aidas

p.s. I'm still interested in what septic means in aussie.

[rkr]

Just get some convector pipes and make it air cooled. No trouble with water or anything, it'll even heat your apartment in winter. 2 meters of 22mm aluminium pipe will cool off 800W (more in potstill mode) with ambient cooling. There are also copper ones available but I don't have performance data for them.

Cheers, Riku

[hornedrhodent]

p.s. I'm still interested in what septic means in aussie.

Just a bit of pommie rhyming slang - septic tank = Yank.

I'm not bitching - I was asked what it meant.