Small home ethanol plant

[J0HNmhs]

hello everyone i am a college student that is interested in making his own fuel for sale through a business. B4 any1 point out how im breaking laws and such, i have already got all the permits and laws set up for this business (i think). I will have about $2500 to start my business. I have found cheap sugar and with estimations it should be about 70 cents a gallon to produce. What I need though is some help coming up with still plans. I was thinking i would use a valved reflux still with 8 55-gallon drums attached to a central tower. For the center tower I was thinking about 4-6 in wide and 5.5 feet of column aside from the water collection and condenser above and to the side so it would be about 7.5 feet total. The main problems i have are still plans and follow the still plans and only spend like $800 totally on the still. Since it is for cars and im using a tainted sugar source, i dont care about what its made out of. I was thinking about using what ever is the cheapest materials and then if there some rust in it filter it out or something. Anyways plz throw some ideas for me out there.

[dr wacky]

You certainly wont build something like that out of copper for $800.
I'm pretty much a newbie but I'll put in my two cents worth.

I would think a plate type still would be the type of design you are after.
I have no idea how to build one, but I understand there are some people
on this forum who do.

I know that plastics are generally discouraged because of what they will
leach into the alcohol. While we know this bad for human consumption,
it may also be bad for fuel consumption. There is the possibility of glazing
the injectors, or clogging the fuel filter. There is also the possibilty that it
may be just fine. I am also unsure if you can make a plate type still from
plastics.

Is your fuel source for heating your still, part of your overall cost per
gallon analysis?

[hornedrhodent]

Build a 2" copper column with copper packing as test facility - but dont be tempted to taste it - you'll be corrupted from your original intention.


Your original ideas seem sound to me. - if that means anything.

[maze48]

Welcome aboard JOHNmhs.
Go to the http://homedistiller.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow site. It's a wealth of info. for your needs. I see by your location you are in the middle of sugar beet and corn country.
Building what you propose will cost alot more than $800. You will have to eliminate as much water as you can. There are different ways to accomplish this. Have you figured this in to the final cost?
I wish you well.

[Uncle Jesse]

use the simple sour mash method. no cooking means inexpensive! there is very little waste involved and the process can be modified in places to reduce waste further if your interest is in fuel alcohol and not beverage alcohol.

[J0HNmhs]

I can get sugar beet molasses for $100 a ton and it is like 99.99% sugar. With some work, gas, firewood and some of my cheap labor the cost per gallon should be about 70 cents a gallon. This does not count the cost of the stills or of barrels or the tower to the still. I also looked up some other information and I saw that ethanol at its lowest ph is like 4.2 and some soda pops are 4.0 ph. I also saw that aluminum is fine til really low ph and high temp. Well I think if pop is so strong of ph then it should barely hold up to the conditions I plan to stress it at. Also there is some special high temp PVC i can get a hold of I figured I might be able to get away with that for the tower or at least the condenser. I also wanted to know what your thoughts are on just using plain steel 55-gallon drums for the still. They are cheap and do what they need to, I was also thinking I could maybe find a high temp enamel and coat the barrel to help it last. I know the ideas I have are crappy ways of doing things but I dont have the money I need to start the idea right and i am just a poor college kid. I mainly want to know there is a half assed way I could do this until I can raise more money. plz post and helpful thought or ideas that might help

[stoker]

I can get sugar beet molasses for $100 a ton and it is like 99.99% sugar

??

[Big J]

Hi J0HNmhs - have you distilled at all before? I can't really tell from your posts. I would suggest making a very small still using some of the materials you intend to use for the large still. That way you can test the materials to see if they are suitable. Also, you can then test your various fermentation substrates (beet sugar, cane sugar, molasses) and see what some realistic results will be. You could maybe put 10% of your initial capital towards these tests. You'd get a better idea of materials, inputs, total cost per gallon, and a better understanding of the process in general. I think that would be a good idea before using all $2500 and finding out that your results are not what you expected.

Remember that running a small business is more than just having a good idea and a good product. Consider your marketing and sales, your accounting, etc. Do proper research, make a good business plan, and you can make your investment go a long way. Good luck.

Cheers,
Jason

[hornedrhodent]

I can get sugar beet molasses for $100 a ton and it is like 99.99% sugar.

At that sugar content you wouldn't be able to pour it and they would probably sell it as sugar.

I also saw that aluminum is fine til really low ph and high temp.

low or high pH - aluminium will corrode. May be ok around neutral (7).

I also wanted to know what your thoughts are on just using plain steel 55-gallon drums for the still. They are cheap and do what they need to, I was also thinking I could maybe find a high temp enamel and coat the barrel to help it last.

The barrels may be cheaper than the paint. Try one and see how long it lasts - then try the paint and compare.

[Tater]

Some of the stills used by rotgut shinners to make shine were made from 280 gallon oil drums or simply 5 sheet of 4x8 steel 1 cut in half for ends and welded into box shape.rAlso theres a link to a mother earth still for a fuel still on this sight.

[J0HNmhs]

Hello all thank u all for the help so far… My idea has developed a little. Me and my friend Alan (who is going to a local business college) plan to start the business together. I am planning to do most of the back work and he will do most of the paper work. My thoughts so far go as the following. For fermentation I will use plastic pickle barrels, which I have tested and work fine. The plan for the still so far is to make a rack that holds 4 55-gallon plain steel drums which will have stir sticks built in and an inlet and out let. They will also have a 3rd pipe coming off for ethanol. These pipes will be copper and they will combine down to one pipe that will flow into the bottom of the reflux still tower. There they will go though a pool of water. Then flow up through about 6 feet of packing then a stripping coil. Then move to the condenser coil and drip out into a waiting fuel tank. I was thinking I would make the tower out of a 6 in diameter 7ft long pipe made of aluminum. As I stated b4 pop is lower Ph then pure alcohol and we all know aluminum is used every day to package pop and you never hear about old pop killing some1 because it leaked aluminum or some crap like that (neither have I ever noticed an old can that looked corroded).

B4 some of u jump down my back more… The tower will have a spout for water to leave out the bottom w/o leaking ethanol. Also the “mash” is made from water beet molasses and yeast. Molasses has more sugar then sugar I think by weight, because it is denser. I can get it dirt-cheap because beet molasses is toxic to humans but can be used as feed for deer and cows. Beet molasses is very thick and heavy (it’s a lil thicker then oil). I have used about 6-7 gallons to get the sugar up to the right amount per 55 gallon batch. When you run it through the still the leftovers are dark brown water and are easily cleaned out. I have ran this through a 55-gallon fractioning still and it worked so so. The main problem was I did not have a good enough tower and was lacking good packing. Even though the set up was not great I still produced 50% ethanol. I have ran this still 3 times and each time it produced on average 50% ethanol then I ran the set up through the still design tester for alcohol %. The calc showed I should be getting about 50%. I then did the calculations for the still I wish to build and it showed 95%-94%. I also plan to try testing my idea b4 had by heating up ethanol or something of about the same Ph to around 170-180 and see if the products I’m using will last.

TATER> Also does any1 know how I could get some cheap containers and also tater how much would it cost to make one of those 5 sheet of 4x8 steel boxes???

[Tater]

You would have to ask a weld shop there what that would cost.Used barrel places can be found online.Dont know what volume your talking about but can allways fermint and distill in same container

[J0HNmhs]

well i know how to weld and get free welding stuff from my work... I just have to by the sheets of metal. I have some cheap plastic barrels i use for fermentation, so thats not a problem. I need good heat resistant chemical resistant barrels for use in my still though and also to hold the finished ethanol between production and the sales. Does any1 know a good way of getting metal drums, barrels or tanks for cheap?

[wyldejackyl]

The cheapest way to get things is to either find surplus stuff and modify it, or build your own.

FYI I work in the packaging industry, and I'd be wary of aluminum at anything but a neutral pH. IIRC, ethanol will definitely eat magnesium..no idea how friendly it is to aluminum, but i can tell you the main reason why soda, which contains usually phosphoric acid, doesn't eat thru aluminum. Varnish.
Yes, that's right. The can is stamped from roll aluminum, drawn through body-form dies, trimmed, necked, and then printed on the outside. The inside is coated with a spray varnish (Coors tints theirs blue and uses it as a marketing scheme..but the truth is, EVERY aluminum can is varnished internally), then sent to be filled. The can ends are stamped and formed from aluminum that comes coated from the factory..whereas the can bodies themselves come uncoated and are coated with lube prior to forming, and then acid/caustic washed and dried in an oven before they are labeled or varnished.

15minutes to a few hours would be all that's necessary for the average cola can to explode because the product ate the package. I'm not saying it won't work for your application, I'm saying be aware that comparing it to soda and how aluminum can withstand it, is baseless since those cans are internally coated. Just something to be aware of.

I'm new on this forum myself and am doing some research on alcohol production for fuel (small business, just like you), and my plan is to spend the money on development of the process on a smaller scale first. You can always find investors to scale up production later if your method/materials are proven. If you have access to welding stuff, all the more reason to build a scale model of everything you intend, and run it all at reduced levels. I would imagine that everything should scale directly except temperature and pressure..so go for it.

[J0HNmhs]

thank you that was one of the most helpful posts so far. I'll make sure to still experiment with plain aluminum to make sure it works... hopefully it does :\ and if it does not does any1 have any good ideas for something else that cheap that would work? Would galvanized pipe work ok? Or could i some how get some of that varnish? Also this is aside from the point do you know if all aluminum things used for packages have the varnish on them?

[J0HNmhs]

Oh also does any1 know if I would need some sort of permit or license too sell poisonous ethanol meant to be added with gas for gasohol? Or if it needs to be stored a certain way or if it has to be taxed a special way because it could be used as fuel... I mean where do they draw the line between alcohol, ethanol and fuel??? If you have any useful information for Michigan I would appreciate it if you would post it or PM me thanx

[Anvil02]

know someone who was thinking the same thing.first check industrial scrap yards.will probably findsome stainless of the size you need.will work great .the molasses from sugar beets is right on,its been used for regular sugar production and industrial alcohol for like a hundred years.youll need alot of water tho to cut it.just like the other guys said.forheat better going with steam for somthing of that magnitude-get a couple copies or live steam magazine.alot of oldtimers happy to help in there.(built a scale loco with there help)for fitting and welding look at local trade schools some students and faculty will weld for you just for project credit.if all else fails,theres always steel pipe for a column and you can use a teflon paint thats manufactured for that kinds stuff.forgot what its called but its readily available,meth cookers use it to paint there brassware insides so the acids dont eat it up.think your heatsource will be your biggest draw,electrics out youll use more propane than worth,hard to split that much wood.but a good,well constructed ansi cerified boiler will definitly hook you up.and they are around,dont use anything not cerified they will blow up and kill you.ive seen steam do some horrendous damage.

[junkyard dawg]

2 1/2 cents....

I like the idea, but you are a long way from a industrial ethanol plant and even farther from a successful business. I'd start looking at how industrial ethanol plants work and how they are built. We make very small batch whiskey for our enjoyment...not the same thing at all...

You need to be realistic about what its going to take to build a still of that scale. far more than $800. As far as materials go, you need to use the same things that other industrial ethanol plants use... this has all been engineered before, your not going to succeed with shortcuts. Firewood?

Whats your market? It takes more than a few gallons of ethanol to become a reliable supplier to the petroluem industry...

I say start small. Take that wad of cash and make a small still out of stainless and copper... then make a traditional whiskey or uncle jesses sourmash recipe, and when you get good at it... then sit down with a jar of shine and rethink this plan.

[J0HNmhs]

To be honest I dont think Junkyard has even read this forum, since hes does not see that i actually know (for the most part) what im talking about. See because I could actually use something that people would use to make whisky with some small changes. I have already stated I plan to use firewood. Also I stated I was thinking of using 55 gallon drums or old fuel drums. The gasohol I could produce out of my 220 gallon still would actualy be fine because I could produce about 3500 gallons in just a summer. The limit for yearly production as you should know is 10,000 gallons for a small setup. Another thing you dont understand is I will prob. have more problems selling it then making it since once I get things set up all I have to do is watch over everything. Also the idea is me and my friend are starting up an LLC we are not selling to the oil companys we would be way over our head and we could not manage that as being a little company. I think had u bothered to notice I wanted to use 55 gallon drums you would have noticed when I mean small scale I mean small scale. So before you "try" and be helpful how about you say either good luck man i want to see u succeed heres how to do it, not ur stupid it will never work mk

[junkyard dawg]

OK fella...

I really don't mean to insult anyone, and if you took what I said to mean I don't wish you success then you are truly an idiot. If you don't want to hear what my opinion is then don't post your questions here...

so, I have read what you posted, and I have concluded that you are either too stoopid to be successful in this field, or you are just green. Have you built a still yet? have you made something thats good to drink or.... will power your lawn equipment???

I'm just saying that your plan to make a profitable ethanol business has a few holes in it... I don't have all the answers for making you a profit....!!!!(!!!!)
NOONE is going to give that away. I can point out some problems and share what I have learned, but past that, your on your own....

so, fer real.... you think you can make ethanol for $X per gallon? Do it. I'll be your personal cheerleader...

If you want to have a rational discussion of what it takes to produce ethanol on a small scale, Ive done that... It's not cheap. Its not easy with the best equipment... its oh so hard with firewood as fuel. I don't think you're being realistic. If I have misread this post and assumed too much then I'm sorry, but from where I sit, you and I both have soo much to learn.

[absinthe]

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow first have a look at this site, a very well designed fuel still.

Using wood could be a problem splitting, cost, etc. Have you tried another renewable fuel source?
Say, old cooking oil (go to all the local fish n chip shop, restaurants etc and ask to take it away free or give match/beat what they are getting for it? or even old sump oil go to the all the local mechanics. You will need to run a heating coil before it will burn but you can control the heat better, there is lots of things you can burn that is cheaper than wood, (although i am basing this on prices in Australia)

[J0HNmhs]

Well I have made an ethanol still before. I have ran it about 6 times now... I know its a kind shitty still and the best proof I have made was 120 proof. Although I have made small samples of high proof ethanol that burnt really well. I know I need a bigger tower for it to work well but we built it according to the design we got out of a book on making your own fuel. Basically the idea is for us to take 4 55-gallons drums and make them all go into a tower of the right size. I have calced it out using the online tools for ethanol% and diameter and height. The fuel for the fire is going to be wood since we have an unlimited supply from our public school. We might also work it out later so we remove their wood for money since they need to get rid of the wood. They normally pay a chipping company to remove it for about $900. I also live in michigan where there are a lot of trees so I can do this for as cheap of gas as it takes to get there and back. As for the link absinthe thank you, I have been there many times before but its atleast up here now for others to use. The burning old oil is a thought but that seems like that would be kind of bad since I dont think thats at all good for the environment, I mean dont you have to return oil so it can be recycled or something?

[absinthe]

lol burning oil if the mix is done right is no worse than burning wood, if its burnt hot then it burns rather clean. plus the fact that your removing the air cleaners (trees) to burn makes the idea of oil a bit better in my mind too lol

[Anvil02]

absinth has a good idea,you can burn used oil no reprocessing,under higher pressure thats all.also trans fluid and most of the auotofluids are flamable you may have to cut them with engine oil or even ethanol(use alchohol is the cold when fuels start to gell.i usually use air line de-icer to 1 gallon to a 30 gallon tank to keep diesel and number 2 from gelling.if you have a junk yard around go find an old oil fired boiler
the burner module is what your after, hell you may be able to close loop the system and use hot water to heat your mash a oil fired boiler is safer and will burn fuel oil kerosens diesel and cut oil also biodiesel which isnt hard to make since you have a supply of drums.

[furball]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that fuel ethanol needs to be very high purity(water content) to mix properly with gas, or you end up with water precipitating out in your fuel system. Have you researched that aspect yet?
Here is a link to a company that has plans and column kits for sale, as well as other distillation equipment. They also have enzymes available that can help increase the yield of your mash. This sight is for the people that are interested in the manufacture of fuel ethanol.

http://www.ethanolstill.com/building-Yo ... Still.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Furball

[Anvil02]

there you go college boy,site looks like somthing else.now im not much for copyright infringement.but you may be able to get a few people together and purchase a complete set of prints and whack out a copy for each,(hint)

[wheeloftime]

from what i have been reading it has been said that using aluminum for or as your burner will release poison. is there ant truth to that. i have run a few small batches and im getting a clean blue flame when i burn it. I still need to work more on removing the final 4 to 5 % water but its a learning process.

I must admit to all of you that so far this is this best information site i have been to.

[wheeloftime]

ok aft6er reading for quite awhile i have answered my own question regarding the aluminum issue. its not poison its actually corrosion and hydrogen release as the acid level attacks the metal alloy.

am i correct in that assumtion?

[pintoshine]

No you are wrong on this point the hydrogen and pitting of aluminum is from alkaline liquids such as lye, caustic soda and such. If aluminum was susceptible to weak acid attack it couldn't be used for cooking. The key here is weak acids. If your are using inorganic acids such as hydrochloric or sulfuric acid in your process then there is something else wrong and not the aluminum.
I have an aluminum pressure canner that I have been using as a still boiler for 30 years. It is a bit discolored from all the years but no other damage is visible. Commercial kitchens use really large aluminum stock pot for years without problems.

[wheeloftime]

great to know. So basically unless im using strong acids in my pot or totaly screw something in the mash up, using an aluminum pressure cooker will not cause any problems? I appreciate the correction. I know I have alot to learn and the only way to learn is to ask ask ask.