Plans for still

Chobby · Post by **Chobby** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:39 am

Heya, new here..
So, me and a guy is changing our direction from beer to the distilling, as we find it more ... interesting/funny whatever..
And now, i've worked out a plan for a still, after been reading for hours and hours

Should i say, what an informative site you got!!!

Anyways, here are our plans for an internal reflux still..
We are gonna make the boiler a beer keg (approx 45L), the cap (or what to call it - this piece where you mount the column) in stainless steel and the rest in copper..
I have not written any dimensions on the plan, yet, because i got some questions to those..

We will make the column in approx. 6 cm (2.3"), the water-supply lines in 1.5 cm (0.6"), condenser jacket in 2.2 cm (0.86") and the "rest" of the pipes in around 1.5 cm too.. So, 1.5 cm for the core inside the condenser.
I just saw that i havent included a valve in the beginning of the water-cooling-supply - add such near #5 on the sketch..

Anyways - here it is:

Edit: forgot to add descriptions to the #..
1. boiler/mash
2. top of boiler
3. scrubbers inside column
4. thermometer
5. cooling water in
6. cooling water out
7. condenser
8. output

So, we are beginning to collect materials such as a beer keg (got a contact) and copper and so on and so forth

BUT, we were thinking - these water-supply-lines, are they too small in diameter to provide enough water?
I read somewhere that too much pressure inside the reflux, could blow it up, kinda - but some hole were made in the top of the column so this wouldnt happen.. What is this hole? i guess its not a real hole, but its just the top of the column (the end-cap) that aint soldered onto the column, so this will just get knocked off if the pressure gets too high..
The fear i got is that, when the vapour 'leaves' the column and is in the pipes towards the condenser, these pipes are too little in diameter, so that it will create an over-pressure when we're running it for some hours?

We are thinking of heating with gas.. How long does your destillations take - like, average? 6 hours? 24 hours?

Thanks for a great site and forum and wiki

Its the best out there..
Oh, and should i just say, that we are aware of the legality in our country?

Post by **Husker** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:00 am

I would strongly recommend to NOT use this form of still.

Instead, use either the offset reflux design, or better yet, the inline (Bokabob) design.

Search the parent site for more information (http://homedistiller.org onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow). There are lots of plans.

Also, you can find a schematic for a bokabob at: http://www.geocities.com/bokakob onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow It is attached to a 20L SS stock pot, but the same design can easily be attached to the top of a keg.

The difference between your design, and the offset/inline designs, is that the other 2 designs allow you to control the rate of reflux much better.

H.

Chobby · Post by **Chobby** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:09 am

Ooookay..
Just a quick question, before i got to get out of the house..
Could someone give me a link to some drawing of the offset-head reflux top? Like my drawing, kind of...

So i could 'understand' it

Thanks for the answer, btw..

Post by **Husker** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:48 am

Go to the parent site ( http://homedistiller.org onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ), and look under then menu item called "Equipment". There are lots of pix of offset stills.

Also, look at some of the stills pictured on this site. You will have better success with a fractionating still, vs a simple reflux still.

Also, read under the "theory" menu of the parent site. The "Theory / Reflux design theory" has lots of information, and some pretty simple pix of using a single condensor (the offset or the inline bokabob), and controlling your rate of reflux, vs using multiple condensors (such as in the design you show).

Part of the issue with your design, is that you can not control the reflux rate (well). Also, where the cold pipes go through your column, you greatly disturb the proper equalization and refluxing properties of the column itself. On a metered return system (the offset, inline or some other design), you are adding all of the returned reflux product back right to the top of your packing material. Thus, there is a smooth temperature transition from the top to the bottom of this packing material, and this allows it to do a proper fractionating of the product (i.e. allows you to pull off as pure of ethanol as possible).

H.

birdwatcher · Post by **birdwatcher** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:57 am

Read this book.

http://www.gin-vodka.com/making-gin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

G

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:23 am

Sorry, but I don't agree with Husker when he "strongly recommends to NOT use this form of still".
I made such a still 2 years ago and I use it to make neutral spirit (90%abv) and whiskey (without packing and cooling).

Chobby, I'd recommend to place the cooling tubes as high as possible in the column, so you get more place for packing and reflux.

I don't tell you this still is the best, but it's quite easy to build and it works very well.

I never had any pressure problem, no security hole on my setup.

15 mm water pipes are good.

Picts and drawings of my still on my (sorry) french site :
http://www.fairesagnole.eu/page39/construire.html
http://www.fairesagnole.eu/page39/page40/plans.html

Chobby · Post by **Chobby** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:04 am

@ Husker - ill look for some plans of the offset stills.. And work on something..

@ Birdwatcher - Ugh .. That costs money too =S
I think i will start with looking around on the net - but thanks for the link!!

@ Bujapat - Aaah, okay... I can see that your old reflux is a bit like my plans.. Am i right if i say the differences are:
- your coolers running through the column are positioned higher, and has a direct input from watersource and the condenser and the cooling in the column has individual valves?

Thats what i could see from your pics and your plans, at least

By the way - what did you use for packing in your old reflux - and what could you create with it? (Rum, vodka, schnapps, w/e =) )

BW Redneck · Post by **BW Redneck** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:24 pm

Most of us here do not think that the "stillmaker" variety of reflux still is one of the best designs, yes. I'd like to build the "vapor management" variety of reflux still mentioned in The Compleat Distiller because:

*Unlike stills where cooling tubes induce the reflux (Cooling Management), this variety of still is not influenced by the temperature of the cooling water. As long as the condenser on top of the column is sizeable enough to handle the vapor, it will not be affected should you decide to recirculate water. All of the reflux is controlled by 2 gate valves that lead the vapor to 2 separate condensers.

*The valves do not need to be precision-type needle valves like those
used in stills that condense the entire quantity of liquid and then distribute it between the collection and the column (Liquid Management). The volume of the vapor is much greater than the volume of the liquid condensed so the settings can be slightly imprecise without much effect to the reflux ratio.

*Most importantly, the settings on a Vapor Management still are not influenced by the composition of the vapor, which changes as you near the end of the run. A Liquid Management (offset?) still's settings only control the amount taken, thus when the vapor composition changes, which reduces the amount of liquid condensed, you will be returning a lesser amount of liquid to the column, reducing your reflux ratio an thus the purity.

*Also, when the vapor composition changes, so does it's density. If designed so the reflux condenser sits on top of the column and the collection condenser is attached with a 90 degree tee, the still will stop collecting just before the onset of the tails, keeping you from collecting a majority of them in the product. This way, the still does not need to be monitored as constantly like the Liquid Management stills do. If you want to collect tails to be used in another batch, place another gate valve between the reflux condenser and the column. Shut this off at the onset of the tails and open the collection valve wider to collect faster.

*And for those who want to pot still, this design can be easily converted to a pot still by shutting off the reflux valve and removing the packing.

I have not built one of these yet so I am paraphrasing from The Compleat Distiller, so I cannot speak on behalf of someone who actually owns one.

Do a search on "Vapor Management", or better yet, purchase The Compleat Distiller from the Amphora Society.

masonjar · Post by **masonjar** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:07 pm

Your pipe diameters are fine. You won't blow anything up.

I'm with Husker - the bokabob inline or offset reflux is the better still. I've heard from many people that this one will work, but it has efficiency problems. The main one being the cooling tube that runs through the column on the bottom. It wastes energy from your burner by pulling heat out of the system before it's done its job, and it returns some condensate back into the wash which is a total waste. The bottom cooling tube also pre-heats the cooling water which means that the condensor has to be over-sized to compensate. The bottom cooling tube also disrupts the temperature gradient that you want along the column, requiring a longer column to do the same job. If you want to make an improvement on this design, simply don't install the bottom cooling tube running through the column - just hook it directly to the water jacket. The top cooling tube is essential - leave that one there. If you remove the bottom cooling tube then you can reduce the length of the water jacket.

As Husker said though, this still has inferior control compared to the valved designs like the bokakob and offset-head. On this one, you can only adjust the rate of coolant flow - which doesn't allow 100% reflux to ever occur so you can never let the column reach an equilibrium.

Even with packing removed, being run as a pot-still, this still is wasteful because it returns distillate directly back into the wash.

The bokakob is easier to build, far less expensive (no fittings) and gives you much more flexibility and has no major design flaws like this one has. At least entertain the idea of considering it.

Post by **Husker** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:42 am

If you want a good schematic (and instructions on running) of an inline, see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_disti ... uction.jpg

Edited to fix link

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:09 am

Chobby wrote:@ Bujapat - Aaah, okay... I can see that your old reflux is a bit like my plans.. Am i right if i say the differences are:
- your coolers running through the column are positioned higher, and has a direct input from watersource and the condenser and the cooling in the column has individual valves?

Yes, everything you wrote is right.

Chobby wrote:By the way - what did you use for packing in your old reflux - and what could you create with it? (Rum, vodka, schnapps, w/e =) )

I created with success neutral spirit (Vodka), bourbon, apple brandy, wine brandy and "sake"...

I must say I've better results since I've a potstill... So I only use the "old" reflux for neutral spirit...

rangaz · Post by **rangaz** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:26 pm

The inline is by far the cheapest and easiest produce (not one fitting needed and only two plates to solder along with the outake tube). It is also one of the easiest to run as the condenser only has to be able to knock down all the vapour so temp doesn't matter. The control of relfux is given by only one valve which is the outake valve.

Post by **Husker** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:59 pm

The control of the inline, is also given by a single valve.

In Bokabob's instructions, he does mention messing with the cooling.

To equalize, he recommends, running for half hour or so, then turning down the cooling water until to where things get hot (but the vapor is still knocked down). Then equalize like that for a little while, and then slowly bleed off the fore, and heads. Doing it like that will keep the lowest temp vapor product condensed at the top of the still, which you bleed off. The vapor being condensed, but still very warm, will not go far down into the packing, but stay right at the top, getting stronger and stonger of the nasties.

Once heads are out, I think the cooling can be turned back up to a "normal" mode. Then you can take things off faster, as long as the temp does not rise. And like the offset, when you get close to tails, re-equalize, and take things much slower again (get the ethanol, without getting the fusel's). However, I think the only time you fuxor with cooling water rate is at the initial fore/head takeoff.

H.

Chobby · Post by **Chobby** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:57 am

Woah.. Thanks for all the nice replies..

Hmm, to summon up..
I want a still where i can control the cooling input, but where i can control each for it self.. (The cooling input for the column and the condenser).. - IF i go with that design.. Am I right?

As for now, i will not go very deep into the theory of running the still (as for the cooling etc)..
But, i would like it to be as cheap as possible

Within limitations, of course.. Im not gonna build that swedish pot still i saw in some pdf...
In denmark, we got these "recycling stations".. Do you think i would be able to get some copper pipes from there? I mean, the quality and so on.. Anything i should be very attentive/considerate about?
I would probably be able to say that its for a schoolproject where we are distilling salt-water.. hehe..

rangaz · Post by **rangaz** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:10 am

with the offset and inline designs there is no need for accurate control over the cooling, it only needs to be able to knock down all the vapour so doesn't matter if it is more powerful. The reflux ratio (the major factor in purity) is instead controlled by the offtake valve. By controlling how much you take, you also manage how much is returned to the column for reflux