white oak vs red oak

[gilley]

can i use red oak insted of white oak for flavoring???[/b]

[junkyard dawg]

Might be worth a try. seems like someone that tried it didn't like it tho...

Proper white oak is not too hard to find. I like it, but many other woods are useful for flavoring and aging. Try using the search feature and you'll find tons of info on this topic.

[Uncle Remus]

I use both. They both work fine. Someone on here once said that barrels are made with white oak rather than red because the structure of the wood is better suited for barrel making.

[gilley]

thanks for the heads up...im a wood worker ( cabinet maker ).and i toss out tons of red oak and i might as well use it since i got it...as long as it works..thank again..GILLEY

[msrorysdad]

I think the red actually gives color and flavor faster, I guess maybe the openness of the grain that makes it not barrel worthy makes it easier for the product to leach into and out of? I distress age mine, into freezer, onto counter, yada, yada. It may give a different taste than white (probably), but everyone likes my hootch.

[jake]

just dont get pin oak mixed up for red. smells like piss.don't taste good either. try some sasafras with a good char onit good flav. nice color to.

[BW Redneck]

I use swamp white oak (Q. bicolor ?), of all things, for mine. Just had a fallen tree on hand. No problems yet.

It doesn't hurt to experiment. That's what this hobby is all about, isn't it?

[junkyard dawg]

maybe I got pin oak and red oak confused. I was pretty sure someone here said they used some oak that wasn't good.

[wineo]

Does anybody know if french oak is red oak? I used some a while back,and the stuff tasted like canadian whiskey.Different taste.Ive been useing jack daniels barrel chips.there already toasted and have some barrel char in there too,plus they smell like whiskey{even though I think Jack daniels whiskey is horse piss},the barrel chips are good for flavoring.
That french oak is red in color,and grown in france,I wondered if its anything like the red oak we get in the u.s. Ive drank glenlivit french oak cask,and didnt like it.The regular glenlivit 12yr old is good.It might be good in some grape wine,or if you were trying to make canadian club or something like it.
wineo

[mtnwalker2]

In the mountains of NC and TN, there are also several species that the mountaineers call black oak or piss oak. I think pin oak, and chestnut oak are of this type. Also, flavors a steak badly. I have done one batch on oven toasted sugar maple (hard maple or green Maple), and liked it better than the oak for shaveings runs. Had a 10" apple limb break off last fall from too many apples, and am preparing to fast dry it to try. A Jonathon which should be good.

Cheers to all, and lets keep progressing.

PS. Sassafrass is almost extinct here. Has anyone tried Sourwood, which makes one of the worlds best honey?

[wineo]

Sassafrass still grows around here,but I read some bad stuff about it.
It seems that they dont use it the way they use to in rootbeer extract because they found a carsonnigean in the sassafras.{Boy I spelled that one bad} I use to drink sassafrass tea all the time.I made some root beer last summer,and it wasnt the same.Not even close.And that really sucks cause the old stuff made the best root beer ever.Better than the old dog +suds or a+w.
wineo

[pintoshine]

sassafras. Hmm... I have all kinds of that. The roots too. I make sassafras jelly occasionally. I have saplings everywhere. Charred and added as a flavoring to rum would be a great combination. I have to try that. Rim spiced with sassafras.

[possum]

I use the cambrian (white fleshy) layer of bark from the roots for tea making.

I also have used the sasafras cambrian (white fleshy) layer of bark from the roots to flavor my jagermeister clone.

[Aidas]

Does anybody know if french oak is red oak?
wineo

No, french, or limousin oak is Quercus pedunculata, really just a subset of quercus robur. European oak, simply put.

By the way, notwithstanding that quercus alba ("white oak"), native to the Eastern US, seemingly corners the market on being referenced as white oak -- there's a huge amount of oak species that are classified as "white". Quercus robur is one of them.

Aidas

[BW Redneck]

I've got three good-sized sassafras trees growing out in my front yard. Those things send out root suckers clear to my (poorly managed) grape vines. Looks like I'm gonna have to make a few transplants and put them on the other side of the house if I expect to have anything that has no moisture stolen from it.

Prolific little suckers, those sassafras trees.

I believe that Safrole is the primary flavoring agent/carcinogen in sassafras. It's pretty mild, comparatively, to other more well known carcinogens. One sassafras tea (or likker shot) once a month isn't going to hurt much. All of the glyphosate I've inhaled when spraying is probably gonna kill me faster. (That's why they invented tractor cabs )

[MikeyT]

I just cut down a bunch if ice damaged white oak and red oak trees on my place in eastern OKLA. In my opinion, red oak has a more unpleasant smell to it than does white oak. Red Oak has more acid and tannins.

Oak is divided into two families. The white oak family and the black oak family. The so-called red oak is a member of the black oak family. There are many species in each family. Members of the black oak family will have leaves that have little barbs at the end of the veins on the outside edges of the leaves. Leaves of the white oak family will not have these barbs. I'm not sure, but Live Oak may be a 3rd family.

Red oak is also more porous than is the white oak used for barrel making. Red oak has an open cell structure while the white oak species has a closed cell structure. This open cell structure causes it to retain moisture and it will rot much faster than does white oak due to the invasion of fungi.

The white oak species got it name from the white appearance of it's bark on the lower 1/3 of the trunk. They really stand out in a forest of mixed hardwoods. And, just because an oak is a member of the white oak family doesn't mean that it's wood will make a good whiskey barrel. The best white oak for whiskey barrels comes from half way up on the ridges in TN and the other Appalachian and Ozark states where they grow slow and don't get to much wind that causes 'wind-shake'.

[donpelon]

Just adding my two cents here:

Put a cornflakes whiskey on Red Oak, 1 large stave per quart mason jar. I had bought the oak raw, toasted and then charred it myself. Liquor gained a nice, deep copper color after a month, but I can only say that after 6 months, it just didn't taste very good. Kinda sugary, but with strong tannins and without the caramel richness I would associate with a nice bourbon. Hard to describe, but there was just no "middle" to the flavor: Liquor harshness and bitterness, but nothing palatable. Just not drinkable in my opinion. Am going to rerun it with a new wash and age only White Oak chunks/staves from now on. Though toasted Maple and Apple Wood can also be nice.

[Chucker]

I’ve been looking for info on this topic for some time but just haven’t gotten to the right thread until now. I’ve been using some variety of red oak from a tree behind my house for a number of years and it seems to do ok on my sugarhead/corn recipe. Still, it leaves me wanting something a little more bourbon-like. It gets generally favorable reviews and is certainly drinkable but has a bit of an astringency present that I believe is due to the choice of red oak.
I’ve come to the conclusion that aside from transitioning away from the sugar component a bit more that I’ve reached the limit of what I can do short of using a different wood.
So, this past season I sourced some white oak (though I doubt it’s q. Alba) and made a small recipe tweak to what I made this past season. The difference is profound! It’s been on charred sticks now for about 7 months now and has a much different sweetness that just wasn’t there before or was hidden by the tannic qualities. It’s taken longer for aroma and body to develop but is much softer than anything else previous, which seemed to have just a bit of an ‘edge’ to it.
So, can I use red oak? Sure. But it does have a certain rawness that won’t really go away and while drinkable it won’t quite cross over from that ‘homemade’ feel. It may have the look but it’ll lack the aroma and flavor of something from a proper barrel. I have no intention of messing with barrels but to get all I can out of jugs and sticks I need to move away from the red oak. And apart from trying other hardwoods white oak is just the classic which serves as the reference.

[bilgriss]

You dug up an old one Chucker!
Glad to hear your experiences. The general wisdom is white good red not as much. I haven't done the comparison myself. Probably won't, since I have yet to encounter anyone who says everybody is wrong.

[nateboussad]

Red Oak produces a slightly "sweeter" taste than White Oak. Not that it's actually sweet, but it is sweeter if that makes sense. Pound for pound you will get a longer burn time out of White Oak. When it comes to White vs Red, I have no preference. There taste is very similar and I love them both. The average Joe Q probably could tell the difference in a blind taste test. However a very astute tongue can detect the subtle difference.








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[planetsandman]

As tree scientist I'd thought I would throw my 2 cents in..... Q. Alba, American White Oak has the highest levels of vanillin acetate, with European White (Quercus Petraea) oak coming in second. All other oak, especially red oaks you get relatively very low amounts of it(vanillin acetate). This is the same compound that is in Vanilla.

[OtisT]

As tree scientist I'd thought I would throw my 2 cents in..... Q. Alba, American White Oak has the highest levels of vanillin acetate, with European White (Quercus Petraea) oak coming in second. All other oak, especially red oaks you get relatively very low amounts of it(vanillin acetate). This is the same compound that is in Vanilla.

Cool. We have a tree scientist among us. Is you ID pronounced Plants And Man or Plant Sandman?

Do you happen to know a site you could point me to or other information you could share that shows the breakdown of what is in the other species of oak, and possibly other common aging woods like fruitwood and nutwood? The one I am most interested in is Oregon White Oak (Quercus garryana).

I have been using Oregon White Oak (OWO) for aging with success as well as American White Oak (AWO). I love them both and can definitely tell them apart in smells and taste. I see a handful of commercial distilleries using the OWO as well, often as a second finishing after coming off of AWO. I’m just hoping to learn more about what is in them that can help explain the differences in my product.

I have been playing with polishing spirits using a few types of fruit woods, and hope to get into nut woods in the near future.

Otis

[planetsandman]

Otis,
Thanks for the welcoming response! Honestly all the research I have looked at pertaining to the aging of alcohol in wood focuses on the oaks, mostly the European and American Whites(maybe a case of tradition kills innovation). I have been noticing as the craft spirit market takes off, more non-oak additions in commercial products like pecan and apple wood are showing up, maybe some better research will be forthcoming.
I'm thinking the thing to try is a test using 1/2" cubes of different woods, all toasted the same, in separate containers(200ml) of everclear proofed down to 120. Let sit a month, and then sample taking notes. I just bucked up a large Cherry tree in the backyard that has me wondering what it would taste like....... Never heard of a "Gerry Oak", it is a good day when I learn something, a better day when I remember it.
Thanks
P.S. Planet Sandman

[OtisT]

Otis,
Thanks for the welcoming response! Honestly all the research I have looked at pertaining to the aging of alcohol in wood focuses on the oaks, mostly the European and American Whites(maybe a case of tradition kills innovation). I have been noticing as the craft spirit market takes off, more non-oak additions in commercial products like pecan and apple wood are showing up, maybe some better research will be forthcoming.
I'm thinking the thing to try is a test using 1/2" cubes of different woods, all toasted the same, in separate containers(200ml) of everclear proofed down to 120. Let sit a month, and then sample taking notes. I just bucked up a large Cherry tree in the backyard that has me wondering what it would taste like....... Never heard of a "Gerry Oak", it is a good day when I learn something, a better day when I remember it.
Thanks
P.S. Planet Sandman

If you are interested in the chemical breakdown of the OWO (called Gerry oak in Canada), here is the only data I have found of this oak. http://oregonbarrelworks.com/Oregonoak.html

The chemical breakdown may be useful to you, but I will say I disagree with some of the statements in the report. First, the analyst says it was cut down two months prior and dried out in shipment to their lab so it was considered a medium seasoning. I would not consider that seasoned at all. He also recommended the wood be cleaved rather than Quartersawn for barrel making. From my experience, this wood transmits fluid similar to AWO and I make my barrels with QS and they don’t leak. He did compare it to European oak in several physical ways, but there was no chemical comparison to my knowledge.

Regarding fruitwood, yes you should try some and do some testing. Start with that cherry you just cut. I’ve done a bit of fruitwood tests myself and documented it on HD. That thread may be worth a read before you start your own tests. A link to my fruitwood testing is in my signature below.

I’ll share one interesting thing I experienced just recently with cherry wood. I did a test with a white and clean rum, no hints of heads or tails in it to start. I soaked small pieces of both raw and toasted cherry, apple and plum for one year in jars. (Lots of head space, opening frequently to air.). Of the 6 samples, the raw cherry and raw Apple smelled and tasted like a brandy to me. Smell, I could smell the fruit of the wood in addition to a fruity ethyl acetate (heads) smell. Taste wise, I could taste the fruit of the wood along with a headsy heat in the mouth like a drink with some heads in it. None of the other samples came out this way, with a headsy profile. Both turned out to be great spirits in my opinion, though not anything like I expected. It was a pleasant surprise.

Just my opinion, but everclear has its own unique smell and taste and is not what I would consider a clean neutral. Too much heads in it, and likely foreshots (acetone) too. You may be happier with a good triple distilled vodka.

Otis

[pope]

+1 on reading Otis' threads, he has done a ton of experimenting with 'non-oak additions' and its well worth the read. Since everclear ≠ neutral ≠ vodka (at least per this forum), I'll use forum terminology and say if you sub neutral for your everclear I think you'll have a good foundation, but even pure ethanol renders sweet and doesn't really have a 'neutral' flavor. If you were running lab tests maybe it'd be different but for smell and taste, I think something light but complementary is a great choice for a base (like Otis' rum or a very delicate single malt or corn whiskey).

[cayars]

Just my opinion, but everclear has its own unique smell and taste and is not what I would consider a clean neutral. Too much heads in it, and likely foreshots (acetone) too. You may be happier with a good triple distilled vodka.

Otis

I can testify to this. About a month or so ago some friends were over and one had a bottle of 190 Everclear. We got talking about it not really being a true neutral while the guy who brought it swears it was good. So I went and got the proof and tralle hydrometer, distilled water, clean jar, and freshly rinsed activated carbon.

We proofed about 10 ounces down to 110 and ran it through the carbon 3 times, then proofed it down to 80/40% ABV which should theoretically made vodka as it was distilled at 190 proof, filtered to be neutral and used at 40%. This friend like myself likes dirty martinis so out came the dry vermouth, olive jar and a couple of martini glasses.

One martini was made with the Everclear based vodka we made and the other was I think Smirnoff vodka. One was easy to drink while one was undrinkable.

So yea I'd suggest playing with wood flavors using your own product or a cheap good vodka like Smirnoff (or your preference). The advantage of your own product is that you can test at various ABV with the wood vs just 40% for the vodka.

Otis has done some good work with different wood and should be read by anyone that's going to play in that realm!
I've got experiments running myself right now with Cherry, Apple, Mesquite & Oak using raw, toasted to 400 F for 2 hours, toasted and charred. Each at 40%, 50% and 60%. Only been about a month to 5 weeks so far to early to draw any worthwhile conclusions.

[planetsandman]

Thanks for the great advice guys, really enjoying this forum. I have really got a lot out of Otis's work on woods. One question, when people say cherry, are they generally referring to the fruit species, or the native Black Cherry? In my part of Appalachia the Black Cherry is one out of 5 trees so it it very common in wood piles.

[OtisT]

I have been using a fruit bearing species that was cut from a friend’s family farm. Not sure specifically which type of Cherry it was but I’ll ask her if she remembers.

Otis

[planetsandman]

Otis, Thanks for the info, and as the apparent expert in woods on the forum, let me know if you want some some Black cherry samples sent your way.

[OtisT]

Otis, Thanks for the info, and as the apparent expert in woods on the forum, let me know if you want some some Black cherry samples sent your way.

Lol. Thanks for the kind words but I am far from an expert on this. I know more than some and a lot less than others. Just trying to keep it 100.

I’ll get back to you on the wood, maybe by spring when I hope to start up some tests with new woods. I’m living in a temp location now and will be moving again in a few months. Once I get settled I’ll let you know where you can send me a few raw wood sticks to play with. Thanks.

Otis