plain sugar mash messed up....?

riff42 · Post by **riff42** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:43 am

12lbs sugar
2-3tsp of Acid Blend
2-3tsp of nutrients
1-2tsp of energizer w/ DAP over the course of the first few days.
WL High-Grav yeast

Fermented well for a few days, then stopped. Had to sit for a week till I got yeast.
Repitched 2 packets of K1V1116 to kickstart it.
Has been slowly bubblin' the airlock for 2-3 weeks.

and has only went from 1.110 to 1.080.

um...should I just dump it???? I'm never doing high-grav again!

new_moonshiner · Post by **new_moonshiner** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:55 am

as long as its still working I would let it finish..

defcon4 · Post by **defcon4** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:15 am

From my experience with the two yeast strains you used, they are your problem. I have used the White Labs High Gravity yeast in brewing beer before. It is a very needy yeast, you have to aerate the wort/mash daily for the first week and stir it to keep the yeast in suspension. It also works best when you slowly feed the mash sugar over time so that the specific gravity never goes above 1.090 or so. And if that wasn't enough, that strain of White Labs yeast doesn't multiply/reproduce well, you have to pitch about 2 tubes of it per 5 gallons for it to have a strong fermentation (which makes for about $12 of yeast per 5 gal. too much for me).

Now I don't mean to rip you because you probably didn't know this but you messed up by adding the Lalvin K1-V1116 strain. Your thought process was correct to add more yeast since it wasn't fermenting well. The problem is that the Lalvin K1-V1116 is a killer yeast. I have used this yeast in winemaking for restarting stuck fermentations on white wines because of this factor. This yeast strain releases a special protein that, when consumed by other yeast strains (in this case WL high grav.) those yeast strains die. A variety of other bacteria will also die when they consume this protein but NOT ALL! It really can only be expected to fight off other strains of yeast. So when you pitched the Lalvin yeast strain, as soon as it's metabolism started, it killed all the White Labs High Grav. cells. Then you were left not with more yeast, but only the two packets of Lalvin yeasts. The reason they have not taken off is probably because they were pitched into an unnatural/nutrient poor environment for that yeast strain. They are stressed right now by an existing alcohol enviroment, improper nutrients, and high osmotic pressure from the sugar so they aren't reproducing well and have not fermented rapidly like you would expect.

To solve this, you could pour some grape juice concentrate into the mash to give the yeast some better nutrients for that strain, add some yeast energizer(not just nutrient) (from a homebrewing/winemaking store), and or make 1 liter starter of some more K1-V1116 yeast and when the foam in the starter starts to subside, swirl it and dump it into the mash, that should give a strong fermentation provided the mash isn't infected.

Now the only remaining problem (again, not to rip you), is an all sugar wash. I've distilled washes that did ferment well and honestly they are horrible. Carbon filtering, aging on oak, nothing helps it in my opinion. If you are after the meanest white dog, ruckus juice, or fire water you ever tasted then sugar washed are for you, but if you want to make vodka, ferment a wheat mash with a few tablespoons of wheat germ in it and run it through a reflux still twice and you'll get some pretty good stuff.

What kind of still do you use?

olcarguy · Post by **olcarguy** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:03 am

If you are not in a hurry let it run it's course. The 1116 is good to about 16% alcohol, a slow ferment is not a bad thing. When it is done, run a fast stripping run (following basic procedure) Store for a couple weeks with the addition of some baking soda. (about a level teaspoon per quart) If the backset from the stripping run is still sweet you can use it to start another batch......so I've heard

defcon4 · Post by **defcon4** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:31 am

olcarguy reminded me, the Lalvin K1-1116 strain dies at around 15-16% alcohol.

The Lalvin EC-1118 (champagne) yeast strain is also a killer yeast, but it can tolerate 18% alcohol, in my experience the ferment pretty much stops at 17% though. The only negative is that you should ferment at no greater a temperature than 70 deg F to prevent the mash from tasting stale, which is not the best temperture to restart a slow ferment.

Like everyone said though, just let it keep goin. High gravity mashes can take a month or two to really finish up.

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:36 am

Your Yeast will not handle that high of a gravity,in a sugar wash.If you would have inverted the sugar,it might have done better,but still it was just too much sugar.I did about the same thing once with 1118 yeast,and a high gravity.It took 4 months to get down to 1030sg.I ran it and it turned out ok,but took too damm long.If you have a big enough pot,bring the whole thing to a boil for 15 min.,and this will invert the sugar,and kill the yeast.Once its cooled off,dont use all of it,and add some water to drop the gravity to 1080.Make a starter with half water,and half wash.When the starter gets going real good,add it to your 1080sg wash.the dead yeast will provide neutrents for the new yeast.I would use 2 packs of 1118.The rest of the wash thats leftover,can be added after the gravity drops to 1020.Just remember,never go over 1080sg on a sugar wash,and always invert the sugar,and add lots of nutrents to it,because the sugar doesnt have any.If you can get some mexecan sugar{unprocessed} it has more neutrents in it,and will ferment easier.
wineo

Post by **theholymackerel** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:05 am

Howdy Riff42.

Lets see... an OG of 1.11 fermented all the way down to 1.0 yeilds 14.69 % ABV.

High enough to give some nastys, but not unreasonably high.

Either of the yeasts you have used should have been able to ferment yer wash out to completion.

Ya used acid, and both yeast nutrient and energizer... it should have fully fermented.

My only thought at this time would be to look at the only ingredient ya didn't mention: water. Maybe yer water was already awfully acidic, or maybe it had a chlorine or bacteria problem. What water were ya usin', and do ya have a water report?

I wish ya luck.

birdwatcher · Post by **birdwatcher** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:01 am

Starting SG too high

Temp?

Use regular bakers yeast for sugar wash.

Cheers.

G

My Sugar Wash

Equipment:

My fermenter is a Rubbermaid 106 liter opaque white storage container with lid.
In Canada, available at Canadian Tire.

Four 23 liter wine carboys

Four air locks.

Hydrometer

2" bottomless styrofoam box, with cover, large enough to cover fermenter or 4 carboys.

Wallplug, lightbulb socket connected to electrical cord.

digital thermometer

Stir stick

Syphoning tube

********

My recipe for an 80 liter wash. Ingredients as follows:

3 cups tomato paste

Juice 3 lemons

Approx. 18 kg sugar

225 grams fresh regular bakers yeast. Buy in bulk at any good health food store.

water(I use spring well water)

Procedure:

Keep careful notes from start to finish for future reference.

Carefully mix paste, juice, say 14 kg sugar with 60 liters water at 30C. Measure SG.
(you are aiming for 1.09)

Carefully add water and sugar to bring mixture to 80 liter, WITH A SG 1.09.
Temperature of finished mixture should be 30C-35C to start.

You should now have 80 liters of mixed ingredients.

Carefully sprinkle 225 grams of yeast over surface, stirring in.
Place cover loosely, to let CO2 escape, keeping flying nasties out.
There is so much CO2 coming off; there is no need to worry about oxygen coming in contact.

Place bottomless styrofoam box over fermenter. Dangle lit lightbulb through small
hole in lid. Bulb must be strong enough to keep the mixture at a steady range of
30C-35C for entire fermentation. Size of bulb depends on room temperature. Stick
your digital thermometer through side of box to track inside temperature.

{A good idea would be to set up with water a day before you begin wash to determine
the size of light bulb to maintain water/wash in the 30-35C range.}

Check SG and temperature daily

Stir daily

On day three, syphon contents evenly into four 23 liter airlocked carboys.
(This step may not be nessesary and I may at some future date simply take the wash from start
to finish in the unairlocked storage container)

Check SG and temperature daily

Shake carboys gently daily.

After a total of 7-8 days SG should be .995. If not, wait until completion.

Note: After ten years of making 95% ethanol, and fine tuning my recipe after lots of
suggestions from people on this forum, this is what works for me. I'm always fine
tuning and welcome any comments or suggestions.

If any points above are not clear or you have questions, feel free to ask.

Cheers,

G

Post by **theholymackerel** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:52 am

birdwatcher wrote:Starting SG too high

Why do ya say that? Either of the yeasts he used could easily handle 14 point someodd percent ABV.

riff42 · Post by **riff42** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:12 am

defcon4 wrote:From my experience with the two yeast strains you used, they are your problem. I have used the White Labs High Gravity yeast in brewing beer before. It is a very needy yeast, you have to aerate the wort/mash daily for the first week and stir it to keep the yeast in suspension. It also works best when you slowly feed the mash sugar over time so that the specific gravity never goes above 1.090 or so. And if that wasn't enough, that strain of White Labs yeast doesn't multiply/reproduce well, you have to pitch about 2 tubes of it per 5 gallons for it to have a strong fermentation (which makes for about $12 of yeast per 5 gal. too much for me).

Ah....I never had any luck with that yeast in the first place. The only reason why I had it was left over from some cider, so I figured I would try it to get a high-alcohol wash for attempting semi-neutral in a potstill....

Now I don't mean to rip you because you probably didn't know this but you messed up by adding the Lalvin K1-V1116 strain. Your thought process was correct to add more yeast since it wasn't fermenting well. The problem is that the Lalvin K1-V1116 is a killer yeast. I have used this yeast in winemaking for restarting stuck fermentations on white wines because of this factor. This yeast strain releases a special protein that, when consumed by other yeast strains (in this case WL high grav.) those yeast strains die. A variety of other bacteria will also die when they consume this protein but NOT ALL! It really can only be expected to fight off other strains of yeast. So when you pitched the Lalvin yeast strain, as soon as it's metabolism started, it killed all the White Labs High Grav. cells. Then you were left not with more yeast, but only the two packets of Lalvin yeasts. The reason they have not taken off is probably because they were pitched into an unnatural/nutrient poor environment for that yeast strain. They are stressed right now by an existing alcohol enviroment, improper nutrients, and high osmotic pressure from the sugar so they aren't reproducing well and have not fermented rapidly like you would expect.

I added the K1V1116 because of the 'stuck ferment' ability...not knowing that it kills other things to achieve that. That known......should I try adding more nutrients?

To solve this, you could pour some grape juice concentrate into the mash to give the yeast some better nutrients for that strain, add some yeast energizer(not just nutrient) (from a homebrewing/winemaking store), and or make 1 liter starter of some more K1-V1116 yeast and when the foam in the starter starts to subside, swirl it and dump it into the mash, that should give a strong fermentation provided the mash isn't infected.

Now the only remaining problem (again, not to rip you), is an all sugar wash. I've distilled washes that did ferment well and honestly they are horrible. Carbon filtering, aging on oak, nothing helps it in my opinion. If you are after the meanest white dog, ruckus juice, or fire water you ever tasted then sugar washed are for you, but if you want to make vodka, ferment a wheat mash with a few tablespoons of wheat germ in it and run it through a reflux still twice and you'll get some pretty good stuff.

What kind of still do you use?

I have some engergizer left. I'll try that again. The hihg-grav died completely on me, that is why I used the k1v1116. But all this information know known, I hope I can restart it slightly, so I don't have to wait 2 months for a bloody wash to finish!!!
I'll be aching on time now, since I will have to start commuting 2hr each way in 2 weeks!

I have a potstill. I figured with the high-grav i had laying around that it would producing a good high-alcohol wash that I can run a few times through. I'm in the process of building a reflux, but have yet the time, or money to get the needed fittings. I have the 2.5" pipe already! I might try to add some cooling to the top of my column as is for some reflux....but I never expected anything good to come out of this wash.....it's all just a test.

thanks for all the info!!!

defcon4 · Post by **defcon4** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:08 am

riff, if you do add more nutrients, put them in a empty sanitized bucket then rack your wash off the dead yeast. If you add the nutrients to the wash now it may cause all the CO2 to "erupt" and your wash will foam all over the floor.

When it's in the new bucket/carboy, if it were me, I would pitch a 1 liter starter of Lalvin EC-1118.

I've tried making a vodka from a potstill before, the problem with vodka is that you need to distress age it on oak for a month or so to get rid of the moonshine harshness, then you have to carefully filter it to remove the oak flavor/color. There is also a LOT of product loss in all the multiple distillations and the filtering so you have to save up a lot of low wines and even save up 2-3 spirit runs before you age and filter it.

But don't be discouraged, Ketel One and Tito's Vodka (http://www.titos-vodka.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) are both high quality vodkas made in potstills.

When tried potstill vodka my recipe was, per gallon 1.5lbs malted white wheat, 1.5lbs granulated sugar, yeast nutrients, any champagne yeast (not distiller's yeast). After you've saved up enough low wines, distill it 4-5 times. It will smell really good/smooth, a hint of wheat. It has a smooth taste in your mouth (better than Grey Goose in my opinion) but when it hits your throat, Damn! it's just moonshine. That's the one thing I couldn't fix, so I stick with rum and ujsm now.

riff42 · Post by **riff42** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:07 am

defcon4 wrote:riff, if you do add more nutrients, put them in a empty sanitized bucket then rack your wash off the dead yeast. If you add the nutrients to the wash now it may cause all the CO2 to "erupt" and your wash will foam all over the floor.

When it's in the new bucket/carboy, if it were me, I would pitch a 1 liter starter of Lalvin EC-1118.

I've tried making a vodka from a potstill before, the problem with vodka is that you need to distress age it on oak for a month or so to get rid of the moonshine harshness, then you have to carefully filter it to remove the oak flavor/color. There is also a LOT of product loss in all the multiple distillations and the filtering so you have to save up a lot of low wines and even save up 2-3 spirit runs before you age and filter it.

But don't be discouraged, Ketel One and Tito's Vodka (http://www.titos-vodka.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) are both high quality vodkas made in potstills.

When tried potstill vodka my recipe was, per gallon 1.5lbs malted white wheat, 1.5lbs granulated sugar, yeast nutrients, any champagne yeast (not distiller's yeast). After you've saved up enough low wines, distill it 4-5 times. It will smell really good/smooth, a hint of wheat. It has a smooth taste in your mouth (better than Grey Goose in my opinion) but when it hits your throat, Damn! it's just moonshine. That's the one thing I couldn't fix, so I stick with rum and ujsm now.

Ok, I'll try racking it onto the Nuts and Hulls.
Like I said before, this was just because I HAD the sugar and yeast. I am QUITE financially stressed for awhile until things sort out.
And then I move, which will stress it out more, so I am down to 3/4bottle aged rum. I know when got the money, it'll be rum time ALL over again!
(or if/whenever i get the free samples of molasses from Domino Specialty Sugars.....)

defcon4 · Post by **defcon4** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:37 am

I know what you mean riff. I'm in the process of moving too, it's a bi**h. I can't distill anything at the moment since people keep coming in to look at the house (and what if an FBI or BATF agent wanted to buy this house?). I'm kinda learning/trying to culture my yeasts for all my distilling/brewing/winemaking ventures. midwestsupplies.com sells a 1lb bulk pack of distiller's yeast for $7, I've been using that lately (1tsp per gallon) it works great.

olcarguy · Post by **olcarguy** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:19 am

I successfully make vodka in my pot still all the time. Triple distill with Lyn arm at 45° up. Gives nice light flavour on the second run and almost no flavour on the third. There seems to be enough reflux in the arm to make a pleasing drink and no harshness. I don't age or distress any of it. I drink it all white and uncut. I have 2 boilers, one 20lt and the other about 10lt I use the same head on both pots. Do the stripping runs in the bigger pot and the final run in the small one.

Gave a sample to a friend who has sampled shine all over the states following the stock cars....he claimed that mine was the best and smoothest he's ever had...don't know how much was BS as maybe he just wanted more.

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