Rum run gone wrong.

[HookLine]

Not into flavoured spirits, just vodka. But an old friend I grew up with has his 40th birthday coming up in a few weeks and I thought I'd do a one off rum run as he likes a drop (or ten).

Ferment was 12%, about equal parts brown and white sugar (staggered over 3 days), plus 2 litres of food grade molasses, in 60 litres of water, and 1 pack of 25 litre Turbo yeast (probably not ideal). The ferment went to plan, and I ended up with a slightly bitter, dark, rum smelling wash, that had a promising taste to it.

Did a low wines run through my pot column with a small amount of mesh packing, at 2400 w, and got about 15 litres at 40 %. The last 2 litres or so from the still were cloudy and had a strong tails smell, and some fusel oils on the surface.

Cleaned the still, and did the second run last night, and... complete disaster.

Bucket loads of fusel oils coming over from the very start and all the way through. (Stopped about about 1/3 of way into the run, as there was obviously something very wrong.) The distillate stinks, vomit inducing, virtually no rum smell at all. Cloudy when diluted, and oily stuff clearly visible.

I was only running at about 800 w. Temps at the top of the column started about low 80s (Celsius) and were pushing 90 when I stopped, which seems a bit high considering I was only about 1/3 through the run.

Did some reading through the archives, and can't find a good explanation. Most problems with fusel oils seem to be from making the tails cut too late, or doing the second run too hot, neither of which apply in my case.

Any ideas what happened?

Can I fix it?

If not, can I just run it through the fractionating column and save the plain ethanol?

Any help much appreciated.

[grainhopper]

I'd clean it agin(your still), maybe you didnt get the mesh cleaned good enough.

[DestructoMutt]

If I were making a rum, I'd remove the packing from my column on both runs. Or use a pot still.

Sounds like you might have collected too much on the first run. If you had stopped sooner, you might not have had to make a second run.

Reflux column should be able to salvage the ethanol. If you have time to experiment...remove the packing from your column, add water to double the volume of what you have and then run it slow again.

[TRANSPLANTED HILLBILLY]

I think you answered your own question, Turbo Yeast. Ah the trials of learning an art.
I had to run my rum 3 times in a pot before it tasted like i wanted it. Maybe give that a try.

[new_moonshiner]

maybe another yeast ... I have to agree with hillybilly ... faster isnt always the best route..

[AfricaUnite]

Those 200 gram packs of turbo yeasts are only good for making vodka, vodka that you plan to carbon polish afterwards because they tend to make a stinky mash. At least that is my experience with neutral spirit mash's.

Using a turbo in a rum is putting in around 150grams of nutrient, yeast hulls and other stuff you really don't need. The molasses has lots of goodies in it for yeast. Although with all the white and brown sugar I would probably recommend some nutrient addition (see my rant below)

I recently made 80L of rum mash from 20kg or so of molasses and about 4kg dark brown sugar for a bit of extra alcohol. I ended up with a similar amount after my first run, 16L of 70% ABV. I used Ec-1118 (4 packs) and the tails are actually my favorite smelling segment, I can really pick up the molasses.

I did add about 10 grams of Fermaid K which is a yeast nutrient containing vitamins, DAP and other good stuff yeast love. As far as I know this is one of the best yeast nutrients, as we use it on wines (High and low end) during fermentation.

Anyways sorry for the long post, I think your buggered, but not totally, you can always run it with copper mesh in the column then dilute to 42% and carbon treat it. Probably net you 20 litres or so of nice clean "vodka". Worst case scenario.

[GingerBreadMan]

Warning Newbie response: No real experience to solve the problem in this post

I just did my first rum wash, drinking it now without aging and it's really nice - a little rough around the edges, but goes good with Coke, the wife likes it too.

Anyways, I used a turbo yeast, and it expired March 31, 2007, so it could be the worst turbo on the planet. Racked it twice to get rid of the lees, and aftter the first distill it still had sediment on the bottom.

After the second distill, it tasted wonderful.

Don't know what you're problem is, but the only information I can give is I used an expired Turbo 48 which can do 20%, I only did 12%, racked it twice and it turned out just fine, possibly too fine, I have more thoughts but I'm knee deep in the rum at the moment

[HookLine]

Thanks for the responses.
 
I cleaned the whole still (boiler, column and condenser) out pretty well with plenty of hot water, and removed the mesh for cleaning, and there was no smell left afterwards.

I am using a pot column. I only had one roll of mesh in there (125 mm tall), but maybe even that was too much.

I thought that the reason Turbos made so much off taste was they ran fast and hot (by using lots of nutrients AND yeast). So using just one 25 litre pack of Turbo in 60 litre would stretch enough to get it to run cooler. I also kept the ferment temp down to 25ºC with ice, and it never really boiled like full Turbos do, just ran at a nice simmer, and took about a week to finish completely.
 
I have had a far bit of success in stretching Turbos in plain white sugar washes, and it really improves the taste a lot as they run a lot cooler.

AfricaUnite: I used a 90 gram pack of Heat Tolerant Turbo, if that makes any difference.

I racked three times, including 24 hours in the beer fridge the last time. (Made myself a cheap racking cane from copper, which works real nice.) There was no sediment left at all.

I agree that using a Turbo might have been some of the problem. Although GingerBreadMan seems to have had a good outcome with a Turbo.


I am beginning to think that maybe the main problem is that I ran it too hard on the first run, and/or didn't cut early enough on the tails. I kinda assumed you just did the same as for a plain white sugar wash, ran it hard and collected everything, and then cleaned it up with careful cuts during the slow second run, but maybe not.

I'll give it one more go without mesh and see what happens.

I'll let you know the outcome.

Thanks again for the help.

GingerBreadMan
I have more thoughts but I'm knee deep in the rum at the moment.

Where's a 'green with envy' icon when you need one?

[GingerBreadMan]

More thoughts with the same newbie disclaimer. My apologies for posting while under the influence of a first successful batch. These are just random thoughts, maybe something in here will spark a thought or maybe not.


The first stuff that comes out is sweet and sharp tasting. The middle stuff tastes rum like but it almost is too neutral. The tails taste like booze that was filtered with a dirty sock. What's left in the pot is vomit inducing liquid that makes you happy you distilled the stuff in the first place.

In saying that, I find it hard to believe you would have vomit inducing liquid coming out so early, the only explaination I could think of is boil over. Some of the liquid in the pot boiled over and out of the still without ever becoming a gas.

When I was running my new still with just plain water to get a feel of how she'll work I made an interesting observation. I had water come out of the condenser well before the boiling point of water. My thermometer is at the top of the column how could this be? My only explaination was that steam + air = less then the boiling point of water. The column hadn't saturated with water vapor so the thermometer was reading low.

So as an experiment, I turned on the stove and started heating distilled water (no impurities) in the still and waited for the temperature to start rising and then turned off the stove. Waited for a bit with the condenser running and then "drip drip" out came some water.

So where am I going with this thought? (good thing I didn't type this in while under influence - the story would never end:) )

When the temp in the column starts to rise, long before running temperature, turn back the heat early - the pot is already boiling.

Also I read something about using boiling chips to prevent super heating of the liquid, don't know if that's something to consider.

Anyways, hope these thoughts help you out with solving this mystery.

[AfricaUnite]

Good points Gingerbreadman, i forgot to mention that I put some copper in my boiler to stop boil over. Also dont know if I mentioned I use a double boiler to even out the heat. I found with direct heat contact I got a lot of localized burning causing off odors.

Hookline - Sorry I assumed it was 200gram turbo yeast, thats all I used to use, forgot theres others out there. I understand your mentality of stretching the turbo yeast. I did not catch in your OP how long the ferment took (3 days?) but thats another problem with turbos they really finish quickly, and if Rum is anything like wine, a quick ferment usually leads to a less than optimal product.

Your rum setup sounds similar to mine, except that I ran 80L and ended up with 16.5litres at 70%. I have an 18" column and I did not pack with copper mesh. If you ended up with 15 litres at 40% sounds like you ran it real hard and you got lots of the undesirable flavors boiling off. Hope it all works out for you.

[HookLine]

GingerBreadMan
Yes, some good points there. Especially about cutting back the heat before it hits full temp. I have also noticed that there is liquid coming out the condenser before the thermometer show the right operating temp.

Another thing I have noticed is that the temp (at the top of my pot column) fluctuates a fair bit as it is coming up to the right temp, but once it gets there it is very stable.

I am running an internal element, so I shouldn't need boiling chips.

When I said 'vomit inducing', it wasn't as bad as the stuff left behind in the boiler, but it was still pretty bad, definitely undrinkable and quite sickening. Phew!

I don't think it was due to wash boiling over into the condenser because I was running at 800 w or so, and the boiler was only half full on both the first and second runs.


Africa Unite
"I found with direct heat contact I got a lot of localized burning causing off odors."

Could it have been due to me using an internal element? (Even though I cleared the wash very well. Also I don't see how an internal element makes more fusel oils.)

My ferment took about a week, so it shouldn't be due to running the ferment too fast. I am a great believer that slow, low % ferments (max about 12%) are half the secret to getting a clean product.

I am inclined to agree that I might have gone too hard, and maybe too far, on the first run.

"Hope it all works out for you."

Thanks.

[HookLine]

Well, the third run was also a dud. Got exactly the same result as the second run, even though I took 2 hours to come up to temp and ran real slow (3-4 drops a second). Still got fusel oils coming over in bulk from the very start, and head temps starting in the high 80s. For some reason I seem to have nothing but tails. It doesn't make sense.

I don't think the problem was from running too hard in the low wines run, because after reading some more I see that some others, including Ian Smiley, do the standard low wines run too, before doing a slow second (high wines) run.

"Do a crude beer-stripping run on [the rum wash] and continue the distillation until the total distillate received (i.e. low-wines) is down to 25% abv."
Ian Smiley.

So, I have no idea what went wrong, very confusing, but it was clearly something serious. My first big failure. The stuff is so off I don't think I will even run it through the fractionating column. Just ditch in the garden on the weeds.

Back to the vodka for now, I got plenty of that in the cupboard. Rum is gonna have to wait, ain't got any more spare time for a while. My friend is just gonna have to get a bottle of nice vodka instead for his birthday.

Thanks for your help anyway, folks. Better luck next time, huh?

[wineo]

Next time dont use any form of turbo yeast.Wine yeast,or bakers yeast will make good rum.Just dont start it with too high of gravity.Shoot for 12% and it will ferment out good with no problems.
wineo

[CoopsOz]

If it's any consolation, every time I've tried to make rum it finds itself in the reflux very shortly thereafter. I don't know if it's the molasses I use or what, I do know that it tastes terrible.

[HookLine]

If it's any consolation, every time I've tried to make rum it finds itself in the reflux very shortly thereafter. I don't know if it's the molasses I use or what, I do know that it tastes terrible.

Ahh, thanks Coops. Nice to know I am not alone.

[DestructoMutt]

Did you say what material your still is made of?

On the parent site there is mention of cleaning a "tailsy" run with baking soda. (I think it's the parent site, it could be here on the forum.) You should then be able to run it through the refrationating column safely.

[HookLine]

Did you say what material your still is made of?

On the parent site there is mention of cleaning a "tailsy" run with baking soda. (I think it's the parent site, it could be here on the forum.) You should then be able to run it through the refrationating column safely.

Stainless and copper, plus some (de-leaded) brass fittings. I have done about a dozen vodka runs with no problems. So I am pretty sure it isn't the still.

Yeah, I might hit the stinky stuff with bicarb (maybe even carbonate), and then run it through the big column. Haven't made a firm decision yet. Might be easier just to start a new ferment.

Ask me in a couple days, when I ain't so pissed off about it.

Failure is a good teacher.

[manu de hanoi]

If it's any consolation, every time I've tried to make rum it finds itself in the reflux very shortly thereafter. I don't know if it's the molasses I use or what, I do know that it tastes terrible.

Ahh, thanks Coops. Nice to know I am not alone.

Before I used copper, the distillate had the strongest stench on earth that would only go away after 3 weeks. With copper this duration is down to a few days.

Try to put a bit of copper in your distillate, if it turns brown or dark after a couple of hours it means you need more copper in your still.