Column insulation

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:34 pm

would this be sufficient to use. It ithas a high rating at 3.7.
http://doitbest.com/Pipe+insulation-Wra ... 534933.dib
I could also use
http://doitbest.com/Sealing+and+duct+ta ... 407580.dibwhich has an R value of 4.3. but may not be as easy to install.
This might be the best choice though. R value of 8.3 and less than 3/8th inch thick.http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... =100020855
Any opinion as to what to use for the test? I am only testing one so I would choose the highest R value.

dixiedrifter · Post by **dixiedrifter** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:13 pm

Get the foam insulation that just goes aound the pipe and self seals.

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:33 pm

I know that when I was in the Navy that all the steam piping was insulated. this may not be the same. and since we all seem to do small batches the, it may be immeasurable.

I say insulate boiler and column.

or not?

I will insulate my shell and single tube (liebig) condenser as well. The ambient temp. when I run is approx 80 deg my coolant water starts out at 65deg,
but later the coolant is above 85 deg sso Ill have to take the insulation off.

Serious note I will later insulate myboiler. I have no column to speak of.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:35 pm

My column is too large for that.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:33 pm

If this is true, then you would not have a different product at the top than was going in from the bottom. If this is a true statement the why use a column at all?

Pint, I don't get the first part...The product going in is whatever azeotrope is boiling at that particular time...It gets condensed and you know what happens...What comes out the top has a higher bp than what goes in the bottom. I can't explain it in the proper vocabulary, but I know that it works...

Thats the whole deal, it does run at near flood, but the boiling point of whats in the boiler makes the fractions, not the column...so much... the column functions more like one plate and concentrates around a specific temperature. There is a temp gradient, but its relatively small...

Thats kinda what I was thinking... I think you're right in that the percentage benefits are small, I think they are observable tho...

As it seems to me, this falls into the "Oxygen Free Speaker Wire" sales pitch.

Yeah, maybe so...

My column is too large for that.

are we sure that its not a good time for dick jokes???

cannon.co.tn · Post by **cannon.co.tn** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:30 pm

I live on a windy hill. Ran my first run with no insulation and couldn't get the column to stabilize every time the wind picked up to anything over about 10 mph the head dropped 10 or more degrees C. with the insulation I didn't have that problem. I would like to see the results from your test though since you already have a significant bias toward uninsulated columns I would strongly suggest a blind triangle test for tasting at the very least.

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:39 pm

pintoshine wrote:would this be sufficient to use. It ithas a high rating at 3.7.
http://doitbest.com/Pipe+insulation-Wra ... 534933.dib
I could also use
http://doitbest.com/Sealing+and+duct+ta ... 407580.dibwhich has an R value of 4.3. but may not be as easy to install.
This might be the best choice though. R value of 8.3 and less than 3/8th inch thick.http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... =100020855
Any opinion as to what to use for the test? I am only testing one so I would choose the highest R value.

Any of those would do. Just make sure they have a safe operating temp of at least 100ºC. You don't neccesarily need the highest R-rating one because you can easily increase the degree of insulation by simply adding more layers. The choice is between the cheapest one, and the least hassle one (ie fibre-free, the last one).

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:44 pm

"a blind triangle test"

What is that?

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:45 pm

I use the stuff that pint posted from the home depot.It is not the highest in r value,but works good enough.My boiler is insulated with it,and so is half of my column.The reason I insulated my column,and boiler was to save on propane.I can use less heat with the insulation.As far as If it changes the abv,needs to be proven.I have read that you need to insulate a reflux column,and it helps if theres a breeze blowing on your column,but My main concern was to use less propane.Sounds like one for mythbusters.
wineo

cannon.co.tn · Post by **cannon.co.tn** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:44 pm

HookLine wrote:"a blind triangle test"

What is that?

3 samples, 2 of one distillate and one of the other. Labeled ABC. First ID which 2 are "the same" and then which is preferred. Then re-sort the samples out and do it again. See if you get the same results and can ID the "different" spirit each time. Using the triangle method ensures that you are actually tasting the differences that you think you see and doing it blind obviously keeps out pre-conceived perceptions.

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:19 pm

Thanks for that, cannon.

tracker0945 · Post by **tracker0945** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:34 pm

I didn't realise that what I saw as asking a simple question was going to stir up such a fuss.
All I intended was to remove one of the variables in the distillation process and that is of the interference of the breeze on the stabilisation of the column.
One of the quotes I read on the parent site was to make the process of distilling as simple as possible by having to control a minimum of inputs.
The protection of the column appeared to be one simple thing that could be achieved at minimal cost.
Therefore my insulation is only minimal, not so much used to provide a constant temp for the length of the column but to help minimise any wild fluctuations caused by breezes out of my control.
Also the insulation of the boiler has attracted me to reduce both reflux from the lid as well as using less heat input.
After explaining all that, don't let my un-educated efforts interfere with those amongst us who wish to investigate every aspect of our hobby to the n'th degree.

MikeyT · Post by **MikeyT** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:09 pm

When I moved from the patio to the inside of my air conditioned shop, the distillation (without any insulation on my pot still column) went very smooth. 3 or 4 hrs with a slow steady drip.

On the patio there were just to much wind to maintain a steady distillation. The biggest problem was wind whipping the propane flame around. Secondly, the wind on the column was causing varied rates of distillation.

Now, inside, it goes great with no insulation anywhere. I do have scrubbers stuffed up the columns but no reflux plates (is a half assed pot still). (I used four 1" columns instead of one 2" column)

Rummeriffic · Post by **Rummeriffic** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:46 am

Hey Pint, did you ever make the back to back tests? I'm quite interested in this topic, and of your results.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:29 pm

The grape juice is fermented but I have been busy with my bees and sorghum. The weather has been ugly hot too. Strange for September and October. I had a short trip for a family reunion and working too much.

It will let up soon and I will get it done.
Designing my next generation power control is taking a bit more time than I was planning too. I will make sure to yell it loud and clear.

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:47 pm

Hey pint,Ive had an idea for a sorghum molassus rum.Have you tried it yet? I think it would be worth a try.
wineo

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:06 am

This is an update on the grapes.
The sorghum juice spoiled due to excessive heat.
I guess I will be getting some old syrup from a friend and do the test with that or a sugar wash.

DestructoMutt · Post by **DestructoMutt** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:05 am

been missing ya' pint.

nice to see ya' back.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:08 pm

I am glad I am missed. I have not been slacking off. I have gotten a lot accomplished except for comparing insulated and non-insulated columns.
I miss all you guys and girls too. Yes there are a few girl distillers. One of my neighbors is a wonderful lady distiller. She is just internet illiterate and doesn't own a computer. Not even in her tv or microwave oven. Both have analog knobs.

byacey · Post by **byacey** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:18 pm

I have been reading through the posts, and the instability some are mentioning might be due to the boiler cooling off from air currents rather than the actual column?

My reasoning is that the boiler has a much larger surface area for dissipating heat compared to the surface area of the column. If the boiler is underpowered, the temperature loss of the vapour above the liquid in the boiler may be what is dragging it down until the steam temperature recovers.

Post by **bronzdragon** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:38 am

I agree with that. Although now I have both my boiler and column insulated ... before, if I turned on a fan, even on low to move air about the room, it would bring the boiler down a degree or two.

~r~

DestructoMutt · Post by **DestructoMutt** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:18 pm

so, i was bored the other day, and picked up "The Compleat Distiller" again and was thumbing through it, and started reading the chapter on the science behind the curtain (chapter 8, for those of you following along at home).

they are talking or explaining about reflux and how to figure the balanced plate flows and etc., when they develop a series equation and then based on some assumptions/qualifications they are able to solve the equation for a column.

The qualifications for the Constant Molal Overflow condition are:
"That the heat losses are negligible, and there is negligible heat of mixing, and the latent heat of vaporization values for the components are almost equal."

which leads to Nixon and McCaw writing: "So, if you want your still to be as efficient as possible, the column must be insulated very well."

theydon't say anything about the boiler though.

Post by **bronzdragon** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:30 pm

I think that the insulations serve two different purposes.

The insulation on the boiler helps maintain the heat in the boiler to save on the cost associated with heating the boiler (i.e. takes less electricity or gas to keep the boiler at a certain temperature.)

The insulation on the column helps maintain a constant temperature so that the reflux stays at a constant temperature and therefore more efficient. It is a fact that if you adjust your heat from the boiler, this will cause the column to have to equalize again ... therefore it is adviseable to make temp adjustments with the cooling water at the top.

This is interesting to talk about. In application, I have found that both insulations help out for their intended purpose. I'm not a chemist or a physicist, I just know what works for me.

cheers

~r~

Grimturtle · Post by **Grimturtle** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:40 am

Personally I'd rather waste a tiny bit more electricity than a hell of a lot more water to maintain the temp at the top of my column at whatever I want it. I just finished my final project on distilling ethanol (and I still don't understand it deeply, im not sure McCabe or Thiele do either.).

I can only see heat loss in the column as a good thing since it increases the rate of condensation/reboiling and therefore product purity. Granted, my still is internal reflux, not external and I just want higher purity with minimal effort.

Rrmuf · Post by **Rrmuf** » Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:35 am

I read through this thread and it's great views. I was searching on column insulation since I started theorizing if my reflux runs were being helped or impeded by the column insulation I use and this thread discusses exactly why I it probably helps .... and why i thought it might hurt. To be specific, I run low and slow with a 2"x42" column and an RC packed with copper mesh top to bottom. I wrap it with nothing more than pipe insulation (low Rs). I am happy with my results since once I get my column and RC balanced, I'm hitting 95%+ ABV and can hold that very consistently. I do run indoors.

I have to wonder if in the last 15 years if some consensus might have developed. Does heat loss in the column a good thing or bad thing for achieving higher purity? Maybe the R-value is such that it actually has little impact either way.

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Column insulation

Re: Column insulation