methanol

[pintoshine]

not removing foreshots?????
That swill wouldn't tough my lips.
ya know that headache your getting the next day.....the one in the back of your eyes.....

It's called methanol.....or POISON.

It was in the wine and if you drank to an equivalent amount of drunkedness on the wine you would have drank the methanol and it wouldn't have killed you now would it? Was your alarmist statement really necessary?

[pothead]

not removing foreshots?????
That swill wouldn't tough my lips.
ya know that headache your getting the next day.....the one in the back of your eyes.....

It's called methanol.....or POISON.

It was in the wine and if you drank to an equivalent amount of drunkedness on the wine you would have drank the methanol and it wouldn't have killed you now would it? Was your alarmist statement really necessary?

uh....ummm....

wow..thats all I'm gonna say....
yes it was necesarry.

you just told him it's ok to not remove foreshots....are you trying to kill a newbie? or other newbies that might read this thread?

No, it is not OK to not remove foreshots....yeah, your grandpa might have not removed foreshots......mine didn't either, neither did my wifes grandpa,.......but That is because they didn't know then what WE know now, and now they are stuck in their ways.

[mikeac]

I agree with Pinto, you would drink the wine without thought...Why are you worried after?? Yes the foreshots cut makes the product much better (in my opinion) and to drink straight foreshots would be...bad to say the least...But not making cuts and mixing all the foreshots in with all the etoh of a run then trying to drink enough to kill you would result in Ethanol poisoning...not Methanol

It's called methanol.....or POISON.

Ethanol is also a poison my any definition as well

[pintoshine]

Pothead, you must have some false notion that all the methanol comes off with the foreshots. It comes off with a linear decay in strength with the whole run from a pot still just like the ethanol. There is a lot of gas chromatigraph data that shows as much. It is also documented in http://homedistiller.org/Fruit%20brandy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and this has some nice graphs and analysis that shows the the methanol comes across in all stages of distillation.

[pothead]

Pothead, you must have some false notion that all the methanol comes off with the foreshots. It comes off with a linear decay in strength with the whole run from a pot still just like the ethanol. There is a lot of gas chromatigraph data that shows as much. It is also documented in http://homedistiller.org/Fruit%20brandy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and this has some nice graphs and analysis that shows the the methanol comes across in all stages of distillation.

is it not lighter than ethanol?

so, your saying that if someone wanted to try a shot during his distillation, that it would be just as safe to take it from the first shot that comes out of the still as opposed to after the first couple hundred milliliters?

[pintoshine]

According to all the CG data I have seen, the only component that is drastically reduced, in relation to the percentage of ethanol, is the ethyl acetate. The methanol maintains the same percentage in relation to ethanol during the whole run because it behaves similarly when mixed with water and distilled. The isoamyl alcohol and propanol actually increase during the hearts by percentage compared to the ethanol.
The cuts made by taste and smell are mostly catching the ethyl acetate, not the methanol which is odorless and flavorless.
Yes a shot of foreshots would taste very bad, but our metabolism can handle a small amount of methanol without difficulty. It metabolizes to formaldehyde and is then expelled.
Everyone should read and take to heart this from the parent site. http://homedistiller.org/intro/methanol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
You will notice some rather interesting comments such as:

Compare this to the amounts present in distilled spirits. The data in Wheeler & Willmotts "Spirits unlimited - a complete guide to home distilling" gives :

* Home distilled spirit (untreated): methanol 0.0067%, ethanol 99.632%, fusils 0.361%
* Commercial vodka: methanol 0.013%, ethanol 99.507%, fusils 0.48%
* Poor quality home distilled spirit : methanol 0.0186%, ethanol 98.453%, and fusils 1.528%

compare this to the statement from the same page:
You are already being exposed to methanol from other sources. Some fruit juices are naturally high in methanol - for example apple juice can have 0.2-0.3% methanol, or if derived from pulp by enzymatic degradation, the levels can be 2 to 3 times higher.

Makes you say Hmmmm.

So my final answer is: You won't like it much but the first shot off the still won't kill you but you sure may have some indigestion later.

[pothead]

Here ...I found this.......give it some thought before you start poisoning the members of this site. :
"While methanol itself is only mildly intoxicating, it is converted to highly toxic metabolites responsible for acidosis, blindness, and potentially death."

I got that from this site:
http://www.antizol.com/mpoisono.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Also, In March 1997, three people died in northern Ontario as a result of methanol poisoning from a bad batch of moonshine.
Oh yeah here is something else that I found:
"Like common alcohol, methanol is broken down in the liver. Methanol breaks downs to produce formaldehyde and formic acid, which are responsible for many of the toxic effects. the body takes several days to eliminate the methanol.
Short term exposure to methanol vapor can irritate the eyes, nose and throat and cause headache, nausea, throwing up, dizziness and trouble breathing. other common symptoms of drunkenness, such as lightheadedness, giddiness, blurred vision and dilated pupils, might also appear. the symptoms depend on the level and length of exposure and can vary from person to person.
Industrial exposures to methanol vapors can cause death or blindness. many reported incidents have involved working in confined spaces without proper ventilation or respiratory protection. fortunately, increased awareness of the dangers of methanol, combined with safer work practices, have reduced the number of serious poisonings in recent years.
Long term exposure to methanol has been linked to headaches, mood changes, eye and skin irritation, trouble sleeping, stomach problems and visual impairment. Repeated short term exposures can also lead to such symptoms.

I found that here:
http://www.safety-council.org/info/OSH/methanol.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Also...did "Wheeler & Willmotts" test my poor quality to get that reading? Or did they test "Old Willie Goggles" shine from down by the creek?
those readings really mean nothing. Too many variances from batch to batch, and distiller to distiller.

[pintoshine]

Did you also read further in you citations that ethanol inhibits the metabolism of methanol and it is the standard treatment for severe methanol poisoning?
You believe and practice what you want, but don't preach your superstitions to the newbs or me until you get your facts straight. Creating an environment of fear and superstition is not what this hobby needs. It needs well founded facts and science to keep us safe.
Like I said before, the methanol is there all along the duration of the distillation, just like the ethanol, but it such an insignificant amount it isn't going to hurt you unless you are doing destructive distillation of wood or using break fluid in your wash, like from your article you cited about the moonshine in Canada.
It is a proven fact that once the methanol is in there you can't separate it from the ethanol by distillation. If that were possible, methanol would not be a very effective denaturant, now would it? If it is in your wash it is in your booze. period. throwing out the foreshots ain't gonna help ya.

[defcon4]

Simply put, if you were to put one bottle of wine into your still and collect 150 mL of foreshots or something, those foreshots can only contain everything that was in the wine bottle originally. So if you drank all the foreshots, it would only be just as bad as if you had drank the whole bottle of wine.

methanol buildup becomes a concern if someone were to save the heads and foreshots and then ran it all at once. Then you the concentration of methanol would have built up enough to warrant fear. The problems with methanol poisoning in the past came from people using wood alcohol, paint thinner, etc. to "beef up" their shine before they sold it. That all happened during prohibition mostly.

Now I don't know why anyone would want to keep the heads and add it to their spirit, it simply makes no sense. What are you gonna tell your friends "Hey guess what, I'm good at making my own liquor. Here take a shot of this, it tastes like crap and will give you the worst headache of your life."

But you'll live!

[The Chemist]

Wow. Where'd the poll go...I thought we were voting...

How 'bout some facts? Methanol is zeotropic in a water/methanol/ethanol mixture. It can indeed, and does in fact boil off and concentrate in the heads. It is also present throughout the distillation process, and though I don't have handy references to back it up, I suspect that is because the process of distillation converts methyl bits present in other forms into methyl alcohol.

From a handy-dandy MSDS I have to hand, I see that the oral LD50 for a rat is about 5 grams/kg, which translates to about half a liter for a normal sized man. So, if you drink your foreshots from a 20 liter distillation, is it gonna kill you? Maybe not. It might, or it may just blind you. Or you may come through unscathed. But it sure as hell ain't no good for you. I'm in the "It ain't gonna touch my lips" crowd, and recommend that everyone else take the same position.

Besides...they just don't taste good...

[defcon4]

Besides...they just don't taste good...

Exactly my point, why would you want to keep all the heads in the first place?

[grainhopper]

Exactly my point, why would you want to keep all the heads in the first place?

To run in my tiller so I wont have to buy petrol. Its nice tilling with a pernnanner smell coming from the exhaust.

[pothead]

Wow. Where'd the poll go...I thought we were voting...

How 'bout some facts? Methanol is zeotropic in a water/methanol/ethanol mixture. It can indeed, and does in fact boil off and concentrate in the heads. It is also present throughout the distillation process, and though I don't have handy references to back it up, I suspect that is because the process of distillation converts methyl bits present in other forms into methyl alcohol.

From a handy-dandy MSDS I have to hand, I see that the oral LD50 for a rat is about 5 grams/kg, which translates to about half a liter for a normal sized man. So, if you drink your foreshots from a 20 liter distillation, is it gonna kill you? Maybe not. It might, or it may just blind you. Or you may come through unscathed. But it sure as hell ain't no good for you. I'm in the "It ain't gonna touch my lips" crowd, and recommend that everyone else take the same position.

Besides...they just don't taste good...

The poll is here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0&start=15

[goose eye]

pint you runin that one barel outfit like that

[bushido]

I can't imagine anyone being able to stomache enough foreshots to harm themselves anyway. Just a taste in the distillate when doing cuts is enough to shiver me timbers so to speak.

"Methanol itself is not toxic, but it is metabolized by enzymes in the body to create formaldehyde and formic acid—both of which are very toxic substances. The formic acid can cause blindness. Ethanol (ethyl alcohol—drinking alcohol) can be used as an antidote for methanol poisoning, because it competes with the methanol for the enzyme. As a result, there is a delay of formaldehyde and formic acid production, and these toxic substances do not rise to such high levels. Although methanol is frequently added to ethanol-based cleaning solutions, its addition denatures the solution and makes it unsafe to drink. Only desperate alcoholics will drink methanol"

"The treatment for methanol poisoning is sodium bicarbonate, given to reverse the acidosis. In more serious cases, dialysis may be required; in addition, ethanol is given intravenously because it competitively binds to alcohol dehydrogenase, thereby slowing the production of toxic metabolites and allowing unchanged methanol to be excreted in the urine."

That's my 2 cents worth anyway.

[Uncle Jesse]

Let's not talk apples and oranges.

I always throw away the first 150 ml or so just by force of habit. This is absolutely necessary for the kind of mash I normally do. Since it's a sour mash, I throw everything, foreshots included, into the next batch. So if I don't toss the first 150ml or so, over time I will get methanol build-up.

If you're distilling wine in single runs you won't get this buildup, but I'd still take out the foreshots to improve flavor and bouquet.

[byacey]

in addition, ethanol is given intravenously That's my 2 cents worth anyway.

Hmmm... this would save the trouble of having to make it taste good...

[Lowerarchy]

Not being a chemically literate type guy, can anyone offer an opinion as to the feasibility for the home distiller of this methanol color test?

Beware - link is an automatic pdf download.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/39/4/693/a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[pintoshine]

According to the article, the first reaction with alcohol oxidase, is non-specific. If you were trying to detect methanol at a small percent in ethanol of a high percent, one would have to add enough of the alcohol oxidase, for there to be a surplus to allow all the alcohol to react. Getting the enzyme might be a difficulty. There would be two chemicals present as a result of the reaction. One is formaldehyde from the methanol and acetaldehyde from the ethanol. The second enzyme added only converts formaldehyde to NADH. The NADH is what show the color when reacted with the last product that creates the color indicator.

For convenience, we stored the reagents as a crushed, dry, cold mixture (stable at -4 C >= 3 months) in small quantities, ready for dissolving in buffer just before analysis. The following reagent mixture would allow the analysis of 100 samples: alcohol oxidase (4.3 U), formaldehyde dehydrogenase (16 U), NADı (11 mg), totranitroblue tetrazolium (12 mg), diaphorase (86 U), bovine serum albumin (162 mg), and buffer (100 mmolfL potassium phosphate dibasic, adjusted to pH 8.35 with potassium phosphate monobasic), 50 mL.

This section specifies the complete recipe. Most of this would be completely beyond the the home distiller and was meant to analyze the serum, clear part, of centrifuged blood.

[absinthe]

well i just take the 150mls of foreshots from each 30 litres i run in the pot still and add it to the stripping run i do for my vodka in the reflux...

i normally take a tight cut from the middle and re distill the rest and take the foreshots\methanol from the reflux...

waste not want not

[Bodevilio]

not removing foreshots?????
That swill wouldn't tough my lips.
ya know that headache your getting the next day.....the one in the back of your eyes.....

It's called methanol.....or POISON.

It was in the wine and if you drank to an equivalent amount of drunkedness on the wine you would have drank the methanol and it wouldn't have killed you now would it? Was your alarmist statement really necessary?

I had some cheap wine just about kill me.

[arkansas]

Hmmmm, 100-150 ml taken away from drinking, hmmmmm, and my head don't hurt like it use to when drinking store bought stuff. Pretty good trade off seems to me like. 100-150ml, maybe a good shot, not me, don't want it, don't like the smell of it, maybe burn it but best be gone. Just my $.02 worth, bout what that little shot is worth minus the head ache, $2.00 for asprin and the whole day worth of feeling bad.

[schnell]

unless people are doing fruit washes they probably don't even have any appreciable methanol in there anyways. the methanol comes from fruit pectin, which has a large component of methyl esters.

the major component in the heads of grain and sugar washes is ethyl acetate. the nail polish smelling nasty stuff.

i wouldn't drink it because it's nasty and a bit toxic. it can be metabolized in small amounts, but I wouldn't want my liver doing it. it'd give ya the popskull sensation as well.

i think making poor cuts probably won't hurt you much. but it'll determine whether you ever want a second sip again, or whether people think you're any good at making a tasty beverage.

for vodka makers, they should never toss the heads, but should treat the ester concentrate (heads and foreshots) in their low wines with a weak base and water to hydrolyze them as per several other threads on this topic. for one mole of ester you'll recover one mole of ethanol, which is a pretty decent reason for recycling.

some serious fruit brandy distillers do drink their heads. the fancy fruit essences we all call flavors are often esters and are often concentrated in the heads during distilling. these are combined with the hearts to keep the flavour of the fruit. i would point out that they usually use rather small glasses and don't usually drink more than one very small serving. this is treated like a delicacy and is not used as "fraternity fuel".

i've had more screaming headaches from a couple glasses of wine than I've had from all the other spirits combined. i would suggest that the people blaming the "sulfites" usually have a headache right behind the eyes. this is where your optic nerve is most sensitive to methanol.

the methanol content of wine and cider can be quite high. apple jack and brandy heads will have alot more methanol than whiskey or rum.

i have seen GC data to back up the absence of methanol is rum washes.

most bad (toxic) moonshine that makes the news is adulterated or contaminated.