does alcohol burn hot?

[partonken]

I was talking with my neighbour about using 160% alcohol to run in my lawnmower,but he mentioned you have to be careful because it runs hot and could blow the top off the head in my lawnmower.

Any comments about this , or someone who has tried it? thanks

[Dnderhead]

I believe it runs cooler but you mite have to change ignition timing because of difference in octane rating and need bigger jets in carburetor

[trthskr4]

You could possibly run a 50/50 mixture and it be ok. But I wouldn't go any farther than that, If memory from my racing days serves me it does burn hotter but ignites slower and the timing is an issue because the piston is already on it's way back down at higher RPM's and the valves are closing when it ignites and thus you built up more pressure on the heads and could blow a head gasket, bend valves or worse blow a hole in the piston. That's why you need bigger jets also, since you run it lean on alcohol ie. more oxygen than fuel because it takes more fuel when running on alcohol. The increase in fuel flow rate keeps it burning/ running cooler believe it or not. That's why people say it burns hotter, it's actually the lack of alcohol rather than the alcohol itself. Think of a oxy/ aceltaline torch, turn on the acet. and light it, feel the temp around it not in it, but then turn a little oxygen on slowly and feel the difference in temp. the oxygen is the catalyst which fire needs to burn hotter. Any way hope this helps. Have your Sears card handy to go get a new one just in case.

[goose eye]

itll burn a hole in the piston of a go cart. flames was comein out exhaust pipe.

so im tole

[Old_Blue]

It will burn a hole in a piston if not re-jetted for alcohol.

Gasoline engines use a ~14.5:1 air/fuel ratio. ETOH uses ~9:1 ratio.

Any fuel cools the combustion chamber, its the out of balance air/fuel ratio that causes the problem especially on the lean side.

ETOH also has a lower BTU and "Octane" rating than gasoline so it takes more to have the same performance level (short answer).

A properly tuned engine, including jets and ignition timing, will not have any problems. The IRL is using straight ETOH now. Of course, an IRL engine is a bit more high performance than the standard push mower.

[partonken]

hey trthskr4! What do you mean when you say 50/50 mixture? i was told never mix gas with alcohol

[Husker]

There have been SO many wrong statements made in this thread, that it is hard to tell where to start.

1. Ethanol has a much higher octane rating that gasoline. Gasoline (US measurement of octane), is in the 87 to 95 range (add about 4 points to show equivalent to what Europe shows). Ethanol has an octane rating of 116.

2. Gas ratios of 15:1 are good economy ratios, and about 9:1 for ethanol is a good economy mix. Thus, putting high percentage ethanol into an engine tuned for gasoline will arrive at a VERY lean level. This will cause it to burn much hotter. However, many vehicles have O2 censors, and other things, which will increase the concentration of fuel. This can offset much of this difference (at of course, a lower MPG for running high percentage ethanol). It is similar to choking that happens to the gas delivery when it is cold. Many of the flex fuel add-on "computers" help in this manner

3. The timing WILL have to be adjusted. At should be ADVANCED, and significantly advanced. The higher octane rating will allow this to happen. By advancing the timing close to the knock point (and then backing it off a little for safety), even an engine with low compression (most todays cars run at 8.0 or 8.5 to 1), you can get superior power out of ethanol over gas. Note, many computer controlled cars will change the timing (again, tied in with the O2 sensor), and much of this will fall close in line with proper advance. The high octane rating of ethanol, will also allow you to run an engine that is HIGH compression level (12.5:1 is trivial for ethanol). A smaller engine that is higher compression, that has been designed for ethanol, can produce more power on less fuel, than you can on gas (that is why "top fuelers", use alcohol vs gas, they can get a hell of a lot more power out of it).

4. NEVER mix gas ethanol 50/50 unless you know what you are doing. If there is water in the ethanol, then it will not properly mix, or worse, it will look mixed, and then fall out within the fuel tank. Blended dino fuel and ethanol is the biggest boondoggle that has purposely been instigated by the lobbyists for big oil. It is the "nail in the coffin" which removes the ability of smaller community based fuel production / supply systems from being implemented, and keeps the revenue in the "big boys" hands. To mix dino gas and ethanol, the ethanol has to be dry. That is 99.7 to 100% pure. That can NOT be done by simple distillation alone. Also, as we know from this site, producing 96% is pretty energy costly. Most column stills can produce HIGH output rate of 80%, but to get it to 95-96%, you have to use a LOT more energy. Thus to get "blendable" ethanol, you need a vastly larger amount of power to distill, and then a 2nd and very costly step to dry the fuel, and then you have to be very careful with that fuel, as it will "pull water right out of the air", or any other water it comes in contact with. Thus blended has to be made VERY carefully, and truck delivered. It is a damn unicorn of a solution (i.e. this is NOT the solution).

5. Running an engine and running it well, on 160 proof (80%) ethanol works, and works fine. Ethanol runs cooler than gas to start with (when properly ratio mixed), and with the addition of water, you can even run the ethanol a little leaner, as the water vapor will pull off some of the excess heat produced by a leaner mixture. I have run (and still do), both my roto tiller, and lawn mower off of 160 proof. We had to change the jets, and the timing. Both run with about the same power (mower seems to run better), and fuel consumption is similar as before when they ran on gas.

H.

PS, some good intros into ethanol fuel usage are:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... h/me1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... h/me2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

the above is part of a much larger book/seminar. It is a bit dated (from early 80's), but the info is very good.

[goose eye]

i no some ole boys run benzeen ether ethynol if it burned they tryed it. if you dont set your air right itll burn a hole in your piston this was runin 190 + proof. these boys epoxyed a penny in the slot of ole brigs motor to ajust from seat. they was stock moters .it would shoot a blue flame bout 10 inchs out of tail pipe


so im tole

[trthskr4]

Damn I'm glad we've got you Husker. Thanks for correcting a rusting mind. I went back and read some and realized where I was wrong.

Thanks,
TRTH

[Husker]

The best way to "break even" on the fuel economy of ethanol vs gas, is to use ethanol's extreme resistance to pre-detonation (i.e. high octane rating). Thus, instead of a 250 cubic inch engine designed for gas, produce a 150 inch engine, bump the compression from 9.0:1 to 13.0:1 (or 12.5:1), and do some other mods, that are ethanol specific (like VERY hot ignition). You will get an engine that is comparable power (or even more power), but still uses close to the same amount of fuel. Now if you produce your own fuel, or have a small co-op based production group, and run NON-DRY hi-proof, and NOT that all time stupid creation of the big oil lobby (E85), then it can be made relatively inexpensively (in terms of power required to produce vs the power you obtain), and you should be able to get close to the fuel economy of dino gas.

Problem is, there is no real "drive" to produce an engine that is specifically designed like this. The actual market for it would be tiny, since there are so MANY regulations (i.e. laws) that get in the way of this happening for many people at all. Thus, what we end up with are the "flex" fuel vehicles, which are nothing more than gas tuned engines (as far as compression), which have variable fuel flow, and variable timing adjustment (computer driven). These certainly run on ethanol, but use 25-30% more than when using gas, thus they continue to propagate the myths which the oil lobby (and oil producing states), have strapped us with, about ethanol not being a viable alternative.

I am not saying that ethanol is THE answer. It obviously is only a small part, and possibly only a transitional source. The biggest one word thing we have that IS the answer, is NUCLEAR, but the tree huggers have so poisoned peoples perception of that energy source, that it may never be viable again. The US has a VAST, GIANT supply of all the fuel for nuke plants that we would EVER need. If we went heavily nuclear, THEN electric battery cars would certainly make sense. Big nuke (and big hydro where possible), and a conversion to electric transport, and we could tell OPEC to fuk off, for good.

H.