Wood Ageing Woes

[Centimeter]

I have been making UJSM for several months now. I have become adept at detecting heads and tails and generating a quality white dog. My finished product is sweat and smooth with a wonderful warm corn flavor. However, after making over four gallons of 63% UJSM, I have yet to have a single drop survive ageing in a palatable form. Needless to say, I am quite frustrated.

At first I tried the toasted chips. Those were terrible as is to be expected. Next, I purchased 50 board feet of white oak and cut it up into ¾”x3/4”x6” sticks. I then charred some with a MAP torch per Pint’s method. I put eight of these sticks in 1 gallon of 63% UJSM. I tasted it every half week, and each time, I found that my once good tasting white dog had become progressively undrinkable. It’s been going for over a month now and is about as dark as coke and has the flavor of a doused camp fire. I then tried five different wood preps: steamed, steamed and charred, toasted, toasted and charred, and charred. I placed two sticks in 1L of white dog. It’s been one week (what can I say, I’m impatient to have something drinkable) and they are all starting to develop the same flavor profile, except for the steamed one which pretty much tastes like wood + white dog.

I’m a little at a loss. I want to get this aging thing down so I can move on to cooked mashes, and hell…have some sort of reward for the hundreds of hours I have put into making this stuff. What’s going on? It seems like a lot of people are just slapping white dog on wood, be it maple cherry or red oak, and popping out “wonderful” bourbon. Is it my wood? Is it my toasting/charring method? Have any of you experienced the same results? What can I do to finally have some good sipping whisky?

[blanikdog]

The times that I tried toasted oak it ALWAYS tasted like a 'doused camp-fire' so I decided that I wasn't all that interested in toasted oak after all. I toasted them every way possible and compared them to the pics and it was always - how shall I say it? - SHIT!!

Now I just use un-oaked oak from French barrels.

Clearly, both you and I are/were doing something very wrong. I'll be interested to see the replies.

blanik

[CoopsOz]

Me three, gave up on toasting my own. I now only used toasted chips from the home brew shop.

[Rudi]

I use Pinto's method and age in 2l glass jars at 65%

I dont think my spirit tastes like 'doused camp-fire' but Im biased.

Be nice to give some to Cent Blanik and Coops and find out if Ive been drinking 'doused camp-fire' /Shit flavoured spirit .Maybe you guys are just more discerning:lol:

Have you guys been toasting chips or peices?

I also did a batch that I didnt douse the oak with water to stop it from charring further and it was pretty smoky tasting.

seems a shame to buy oak from a hbs.I know the shop near me buys from the same cooper chips it up toasts it bags it in 200 gram lots and sells it.

[trthskr4]

Strange...I just went through my entire lot of probably 10 gallons of UJSM and different variances of grain and different oak toasts from non toasted to charred and in bought barrels. I too found that after oaking the UJSM it tastes bad. Almost a more harsh flavor kind of like the abv is above barrel strength even when diluted to 40% and it loses its aroma. I'm trying Aidas' method of diluting to 40% first and then aging so I will see how that works out, it's taking more time to color up and release the flavor than usual. I have a half gallon of 65% that was put back and forgotten and it's over oaked but it smells beautiful, instead of watering it down I go out there sometimes and open the top and let the smell waft through my shop. I have 3 gallons of all grain corn and barley that's gonna get a spirit run on it asap and I'm gonna compare that on oak with the UJSM.

[The Chemist]

Jeez, I hate threads like this! I know so much that I can't tell...

But, skirting within law, I can say that it sounds like you're using way too much wood. Try one of your six inch sticks per gallon, centimeter. If that's not woody enough, try two...

[Barney Fife]

I've also run across a board of oak that ruined everything it touched. No idea why; maybe it was kiln dried improperly, maybe there was a fungus within the tree, who knows, but everything it touched, it ruined.

And also, what one person likes the taste of, another won't, s perhaps there's something about oak that simply doesn't site well with you. Try maple instead; I've recently used some homemade sugar maple charcoal(about a cup to a liter), and in only 4 days, it began to smell smoky, very much like bacon, so I filtered it through 3 coffee filters, and the product is great already! Gold as gold gets, and wit a sweet, smoky bacon-like flavor. Before filtering, it was a gray mess. Old Jack was onto something after all

[minime]

Jeez, I hate threads like this! I know so much that I can't tell...

But, skirting within law, I can say that it sounds like you're using way too much wood. Try one of your six inch sticks per gallon, centimeter. If that's not woody enough, try two...

Can't spoon feed us but can you tell us where we might find the info we need?

That would be outstanding.......

[theholymackerel]

The Chemist said what was important: ya'll are usin' too much wood.

I'm a bit of a purist, so I tend to drink my spirits white, but I do age on oak occasionally. When I do I use just a tiny bit and tend to age 100 days minimum.

Take a BIG slow sniff of yer wood first. Does it smell soapy or sappy? It's not gonna be a good piece, try another. Make sure the wood is well dried and aged. Use less than ya think ya should: ya can always add more or age on the wood longer if needed.

A barrel (traditional agin') is harsher it's first batch, but smooths out and calms down with repeated use. Also a barrel has alot of volume to not too much surface area... so don't use a fist fulla splits in a small jar. Try one split in a BIG jar and let it go for awhile (100 days or more of age will do wonders alone). Ya can do the same thing with yer oak splits. Soak em for a few days at room temperature in water before their first use... especially if they have a strong smell. Change the water daily. Then put 'em out back in the sun to dry and use 'em. Taste yer booze frequently so as to be able to stop the oakin' before it becomes overpowerin'. The second, third, and thereafter uses of the oak will be slower and milder and easier to gauge when to take off the oak. The splits can be saved and used again to age the same spirits, or to add the flavour of one type of spirit to a different spirit... like the big distilleries usin' brandy or sherry barrels to age Scotch, or rum bein' aged in used Burbon barrels, etc.

Also think about usin' virgin oak. Toastin' or charrin' the oak will always increase the bitter and burnt flavours.








I wish yall luck.

[Hawke]

I've had mixed results with wood. Started with some medium toasted chips and got the 'campfire' taste. Got some untoasted chips and got an 'eating sawdust' taste.
Re-used the first toasted chips, and although it didn't get very dark, it did have a very mellow flavor. My last few tests have been with a mix of the two, with pretty good results. About 30% toasted and 70% untoasted seems to work pretty well for me. Gave the jars a good shake whenever I walked past. Has to go at least 4 weeks for the woody taste to dissapear.
I don't think you can get a true 'barrel aged' profile from sticks, but gonna keep trying.

[trthskr4]

I'm definately gonna use less wood on my all grain spirits then.

[punkin]

Just reading from some of the auzzie coopers in the past, they use oak that has been airdried. First it spends a minimum of either two years or three years airdrying where it's harvested so it drys in the seasons it grew in. Then it's shipped over here and most spend at least another two years airdrying over here before being selected for barrell staves.

I don't think that can compare to a bit of kiln dryed construction lumber that may or may not have been treated in some way prior to drying.

I buy my sticks as coopers off cuts and mistakes. It's cheap and plentiful and a lot of the chipping sawing is already done for you. I split em into 10mm or so thickness with a tommyhawk, this leaves a rough edge along the grain that probably increases surface area compared to the sawn edges.

I wrap a whole bunch of em up in foil in a package two layers deep and toast em in the oven at 180c for an hour and a half then increase to 200C till two to two and a half hours have passed and the oven is belching smoke.
My sticks would be half inch square by six inches long on average and i'd use a big fat handfull (eight or ten) per gallon and age for a minimum of six weeks.

I've never had the burn't taste come through in my spirits. I have had however, vannilla's Maples, honey, and caramel. I have had colours come through that vary from a beautiful red mahogony colour for ujsm with malt barley, to a golden straw colour for peaches and corn and a dark wood coloured scotch colour from my barley, wheat and corn spirits.

I do have some in the back of the cupboard that have a slight overoaked flavour, but they're samples i've put away for over six months without paying enough attention to limiting the wood.

I think the oaking process is adding at least 70% of the flavour to my ujsm and i'd be stuffed trying to find sceptics of home brewing that'd drink it without the oak.

I wouldn't be without em.

It's gotta be something simple why it doesn't work for you, i'd suggest either overtoasting to the char level or your source of timber.

[Aidas]

I too thnk you're using too much wood.

Try using 80 g. of toasted/cooked fingers per 3 liters. That's what I've been doing, and I'm very happy with it. I've also usd 40 g./3 liters and it's all good.

It's better to use too little than to go big.

Aidas

[Dnderhead]

One thing I did not see is rinsing off the wood after toasting and Id go with less If it as dark as coke then its way to much, go by taste /smell

[Centimeter]

I see. So better and less is the word. I haven’t been able to find any coopers near me and I am not exactly in a position to be cutting any white oak trees down much less aging them for several years. So what options do I have? The hardware store near by sells used wine barrel staves for grilling as well as half barrels for planters. Would that be a good place to start? Should I sand off the portion that’s stained with wine or leave it? Has anybody used the planter barrels for ageing?

Would you guys recommend toasting or charring or both? My favorite store bought whiskies are Woodford Reserve Master’s Collection, Woodford Reserve, and Knob Creek if that helps define what kind of toasting to go with.

It sounds like I should start ageing on maybe 2 sticks per gallon. Sound about right?

What can I do with the gallons of UJSM that I’ve already ruined? I don’t want to triple distill them as I’m pretty sure that will strip out all of the flavor. Will they ruin a spirit run if I just toss them in like feints?

Lots of work to do!

[Dnderhead]

Got fire wood ? you want inside (hart) not sap wood, and dilute what you have with white dog and let it age awhile longer

[trthskr4]

Centimeter, I picked up a half barrel planter at the Lowe's and disassembled the thing. I got a couple of really course sanding wheels for my 4" angle grinder (that works the best) and sand off the stained wood and the outside, I usually have to grind off about 1/8"-1/4" of the inside and just down to pretty wood on the outside. I then mark them off in 1/2"x 4" sections and cut them off with my circular saw cause my brother in law has had my table saw and miter saw for a year now working on his house. The staves make alot of sticks that way and it does really good at coloring and if you use too much it flavors really too well. I figure, like Punkin, I'll let the coopers do all the hard decisions as to what wood to use and the drying etc.

[minime]

Lots of work to do!

Hey Centimeter, after seeing how determined you are (your new coiled liebig) I'm sure you're on your way to being one of the finest shiners on the planet.
You'll get this right I'm sure of it!
Me thinks you could throw your ruined UJSM back in the still with some backset and let'er rip

[blanikdog]

Hmmmmm, seems like I've also been using too much toasted oak. Maybe I'll try again when the weather warms up a bit. Far too cold in the shed for me lately.

blanik

[Hawke]

Centimeter,
Before you re-run your 'ruined' stuff, try mixing some 1/2 and 1/2 with fresh white dog.
I did that with my first over done batch and after a few more weeks of aging it had mellowed considerabley.

[blanikdog]

Good idea Hawke. I did that with some of my attempts with toasted oak and it made them drinkable for the mates.

blanik

[libertyesq]

Cent,

I do almost the exact thing that Truth does with a half barrel planter I took apart, except I don't sand off as much. I just take of the discoloration and leave the char alone. It has worked great. After three weeks in 62%-65%, I get a great smooth flavor and great color. Can't imagine what it will be in two years.

[Centimeter]

I tried diluting some of my stuff with white dog and it was still pretty mediocre. The camp fire stuff isn’t exactly undrinkable, just not what I’m looking for. I would rather have some nice tasting white dog than some mediocre “whisky.”

Holy, I’m glad to see that someone else likes the white dog plain. To be honest, I’ve been having a glass of it on the rocks every night for weeks now. Knowing that I’m not alone in this, I’m definitely just going to make up a gallon (or two) of white dog for sipping purposes.

I calculated the internal surface area of a 60 gallon cask and obtained a rough estimate of how much surface area per gallon I should be shooting for. I just assumed that the cask was a cylinder and that the diameter was half as much as the height. I got a figure of 360cm^2/Gallon (56in^2/Gallon). That equates to me using 2-3 of my ¾”x 3/4” x 6” sticks per gallon. I’ll go with two just to be sure I don’t over do it. I’ll try Punkin’s toasting method and age a gallon while I’m on vacation here in a bit. I'll report back with the results.

Anyhow, I thank you all for your guys’ help and encouragement.

[Hotguts]

I have been using these chips from the hardware store. I use a handful in 1500 ml of 160 proof. I usually hit them with the propane torch for about 30 seconds or so. After bout a week they give the likker a dark red/amber color. I then water down to ~40% and its all kinds of good. It doesn't make the likker taste like kerosine either like some of the other wood chips I have used.

[punkin]

Hmmmmm, seems like I've also been using too much toasted oak. Maybe I'll try again when the weather warms up a bit. Far too cold in the shed for me lately.

blanik

PM me your addresse and i'll send you a little care package. Can't have old fellas stumbling round in the cold.

Least that way we'll know for sure if it's well defined pallattes or just bad wood.




YaMustHaveAFlagonOfWhiteDogSomewherePunkin

[mbasketcase13]

Gentlemen let me try this again this makes the third try.

A few months ago i put some ujsm whitedog in the cuboard actually 04/08 i tasted it a couple of weeks ago and it was pretty good stuff i had some red oak cureing on the camper and figured i would char some and try it but only a little because like everyone else it seems my oaked spirts are not the best flavor (too much wood flavor) I figured i'd try a little less charred oak so i charred some and put two pieces of it about 1.5x1.5x.5 and let it set for a couple of weeks then every time i went to the shed to check on the mashes i would take just a taste and it was tasting pretty good. I think i too have discovered the virtues of less may be better. I've got a 20 Gal ujsm wash working right now so after i strip and make a spirt run i"ll take the best of the best and do a light oak maybe i'll be able to leave it alone for a few months and see what that taste like (but i dought it) i just drank my test bottle while typing this. damn I think i'm starting to ramble on.


Rick

[blanikdog]

PM me your addresse and i'll send you a little care package. Can't have old fellas stumbling round in the cold.


Done Punkin. Thanks for that.

Talking of old fellas stumbling. When we were in Bangkok last month (Ho Hum ) We got onto a train and a women about sixty stood up and offered me her seat. I've never been so bloody humiliated.

blanik



YaMustHaveAFlagonOfWhiteDogSomewherePunkin

[punkin]

PM me your addresse and i'll send you a little care package. Can't have old fellas stumbling round in the cold.


Done Punkin. Thanks for that.

Talking of old fellas stumbling. When we were in Bangkok last month (Ho Hum ) We got onto a train and a women about sixty stood up and offered me her seat. I've never been so bloody humiliated.

blanik



YaMustHaveAFlagonOfWhiteDogSomewherePunkin

Brilliant mate

I actually just laughed so hard the Bourbon girl stuck her head in the room to see what was so bloody funny....




MightTakeMeAWeekI'mOffFishingPunkin

[travis]

Centimeter, I had a batch of Whisky with an “off” taste, I put a cup of Activated Carbon granules into a paper coffee filter bag into a 4” funnel & siphoned the Whiskey through a tap, let it 2 drips per second through the Carbon Granules (may have to do it twice) this just took out the “off” taste & rescued the Whisky from a re-run through the Still.

I used a tip from the site ref. charring oak simply. I used a large bean can (clean) put in the oak shavings (I hand plane oak shavings) put tin foil over the can & poke a pencil hole in the foil, put on the camping stove outside & heat, when the smoke stops the oak is charred.

For Oaking, I use planed shavings, as this seems to impart colour & flavour quicker

I also leave the bottle tops loose for a month to let gasses out from the charcoal process.

Regards Travis

FrankenStill

“Still” learning as I go along.

[trthskr4]

I have on odd occasion done this, I use my old oak staves still soaked in whiskey in my smoking box on the grill. I save the burned remains which are usually rough and don't weigh anything then rinse them with water to get all the fine ash off and put that in a coffee filter in a SS funnel and run my stuff through that rather than redistill for a slight off taste but if it's bad I just toss it in with the next run of the like kind. That way it gets a touch of the Lincoln County process and I don't have to say it's been carbon filtered although it's been charcoal filtered, hey I figure if Jack can skirt with symantics so can I.