FDA says plastic bottles safe for chemicals

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:15 pm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

trthskr4 · Post by **trthskr4** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:28 pm

Hmm, who do you trust here, the industries who make and use the stuff for profit or the folks who gave us Vioxx and the like? There's no mention of giving infants spirits in plastic bottles either so I wonder if they tested high abv alcohol in the study? By the way... just how do they know how much of a new or relatively new chemical is lethal? I don't know but I bet it's hard to get that guy to work each day or that day and even harder the next day.

I still wouldn't use plastics for my spirits especially based on this "finding".

glassman · Post by **glassman** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:29 pm

would be nice to have a safe cheaper way to have bulk storage. SS and wood kegs are exspensive!!gman

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 pm

glassman wrote:would be nice to have a safe cheaper way to have bulk storage. SS and wood kegs are exspensive!!gman

The solution to that problem is described here in the Fire Extinguishers

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:15 pm

apparently bisphenol A is good for infants...

Post by **HookLine** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:45 pm

Commenting on those studies in its 105-page assessment, the FDA said they had "inconsistencies and inadequacies which limit the interpretations of the findings."

As somebody who has read thousands of science papers, I can tell you exactly what that statement means:

'We don't really know yet.'

trthskr4 · Post by **trthskr4** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:17 am

I've done some additional digging on this also since it hit yesturday and I too came to the conclusion that they aren't sure yet. That's why I said previously that I still wouldn't use it for likker.

heynonny · Post by **heynonny** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:49 am

I've used used (!) vodka/gin/'booze' bottles which held 80 proof product, I havent had probs with 140 - 190 proof juice. However, several years ago I bought 2 cases of 750 ml flip top bottles of "Rieme" carbonated grapefruit juice from the "99" cent store just for the bottles (for home brew) the juice was so good I drank it all !! Clear glass was the main reason. grolsh & Fischers are too DARK for me. I put a gasket in some 190P alc for a couple of weeks and no off taste so thats my choice. Im low volume so they work for me heynonny

StabbyJoe · Post by **StabbyJoe** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:42 pm

Being in New Zealand homebrew shops sell spirit bottles... I was shocked the other day when checking out a place online and it had a section called bottles with a subsection for spirit bottles... they had both clear glass and clear plastic spirit bottles.

Seems a bit wrong, doesn't it? I won't touch them, really...

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:03 am

StabbyJoe wrote:Being in New Zealand homebrew shops sell spirit bottles... I was shocked the other day when checking out a place online and it had a section called bottles with a subsection for spirit bottles... they had both clear glass and clear plastic spirit bottles.

Seems a bit wrong, doesn't it? I won't touch them, really...

I'd be curious exactly which type of plastic they use for those bottles...

StabbyJoe · Post by **StabbyJoe** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:15 pm

Here is the site if you're interested to see for yourself. Minimal info on this particular product, however. Pretty much just says that they're plastic bottles for containing distilled spirits. But just in case you were curious, there it is.

Bsnapshot · Post by **Bsnapshot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:48 am

Hear is another article on the subject..

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=790853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

grizzly1 · Post by **grizzly1** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:32 pm

I know what they were trying to say. It's based on all the crap we injest into our body on a daily bases that the plastic is no more harmful than anything else we eat. McDonald's any one.

Dan Call · Post by **Dan Call** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:33 pm

The FDA is as profit motivated as the pimp around the corner and is about as scientifically rigorous as the pimp around the corner. In fact, the FDA IS nothing more than an institutional pimp, pimping the appearance of scientific validity and authoritativeness when, in fact, there is none. This in collusion with the FTC and the pharmaceutical companies with the implicit goal of maximizing profit and stock performance, and that is the whole truth.

Case in point, obesity is 'declared' a disease. The FDA rule is...."only a drug can treat a disease," so......lo and behold, Merck invents a pill, a drug, for obesity, and makes millions, oh excuse me....billions. And isn't amazing at how many high ranking government officials own stock in pharmaceutical companies??!!

It's all for profit, there is absolutely no concern for the safety, let alone the well being and power to heal, of the human body or any consumer that happens to inhabit one. It's all about profit......

grunther777 · Post by **grunther777** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:51 pm

I realize its been months since anyone posted on this topic, however, I find this topic interesting especially considering the recent recalls on many types of plastic CURRENTLY used for food and water containers. Standard water bottles (still on grocery store shelves) have been cautioned against for for pregnant women and others, if said bottles have been left in the sun. The plastic liners used in most canned goods have also come into question, this fact seems to have been dismissed by producers of canned goods. It's becoming clearer to me that plastic isn't fit for most food applications. The fact that plastic is still used for food containers, processing plant parts, and to carry our water supply within our homes only proves to me that the health and welfare of the public has been discarded in favor of cheaper materials, not that plastic is safe for use.

pHneutral · Post by **pHneutral** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:05 pm

I think it's not so much "plastic" as the types they are using.. the cheap types.

Things like PTFE are hugely resilient, but they are also hugely expensive and cost the same or more than the metal or glass counterparts.

So as one poster above said "Its all about the money".

I'll stick with glass and metal, and only use PE for fermentation of things intended for distillation.

If I was doing beer or wine (or mead), I'd definitely use glass or wood for the process.

FireH20 · Post by **FireH20** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:20 pm

Will someone please give hard facts/research/medical/biological/physiological/etc. evidence about how 40% alcohol stored in plastic containers over X amount of time causes harm to the human body when ingested - and how that happens exactly?

(Hint: "I will never use plastic ever", "I don't believe in it", "You're an a-hole if you disagree with me", don't qualify as evidence.)

This is not a trick or rhetorical question. I don't have the answer either. I''m just trying to separate the heat from the light.

Post by **Hack** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:33 am

I think the powers that be are coming from the standpoint that most research/information about plastics that shows plastics are ok is focused on how the plastic is affected by alcohol, but little is known about how the plastic affects the alcohol. So with the absence of information about how the alcohol is affected it is decided to take a cautious stance here on the forum.

However, that's just my understanding of it, and thank god, I am no way in charge of such things. Now back to my UJSM, which is particularly tasty this evening.

Post by **theholymackerel** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:09 am

FireH20 wrote:Will someone please give hard facts/research/medical/biological/physiological/etc. evidence about how 40% alcohol stored in plastic containers over X amount of time causes harm to the human body when ingested - and how that happens exactly?

The Chemist has stated here that EVERY water specimin he tested in his lab that came from a plastic bottle tested positive for plasticisers.

If water is a good enough solvent to extract plasticisers what is the ethanol capable of? Surely a solvent mix of water and ethanol is gonna be far more aggressive than water alone.

Tell ya what... why don't you go and dig around on the net and through science journals and try and find us some evidence that an ethanol/water mix stored in plastic is perfectly safe for consumption. You don't seem to trust the "better safe than sorry" stance, so you do the leg work please.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:40 pm

Holy,

I have no doubt that the chemist is giving true info, and you are getting quite exasperated with all this talk of plastic bottles. But May I make a simple observation?

Everyone is missing the point with the plastic spirit bottles issue.

The spirit NEVER TOUCHES the plastic. It is COATED with a BONDED LAYER of ...wait for it...CARBON.

The base material is PET plastic, sure. Gotta have something as a former. Could easily be wood, or glass, or metal, or whatever substance will hold a shape and be cost effective.

Sazerac has been using this technology since 1997 for its Ancient Age whiskey, as has Early Times. I haven't heard of one single case of problems, health or otherwise. Considering the hooha surrounding this issue, Don't you think the FDA would have yanked it if there were any issues? Has Sazerac gone broke over lawsuits? Not likely.

So, now that we are better informed as to what we are dealing with, is anyone prepared to say they would NOT let their booze touch CARBON???

If anyone is truly interested in being better informed, google BARRIER TECHNOLOGY. and pet bottles for alcohols here...
http://tinyurl.com/9d4qg4

Let's hope this is an end to the misunderstanding.

zymos · Post by **zymos** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:01 pm

Harry wrote:
The spirit NEVER TOUCHES the plastic. It is COATED with a BONDED LAYER of ...wait for it...CARBON.

T
If anyone is truly interested in being better informed, google BARRIER TECHNOLOGY. and pet bottles for alcohols here...
http://tinyurl.com/9d4qg4

Followed that link and did some reading, and although SOME coatings are applied to the inside of the bottles, MOST seem to be applied to the OUTSIDE of the bottle, or sandwiched in a layer inside the plastic itself. Because the purpose of the coatings, to most of the manufacturers, is not to protect the beverage from exposure to PLASTIC, but to protect it from exposure to OXYGEN.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:38 pm

zymos wrote:
Followed that link and did some reading, and although SOME coatings are applied to the inside of the bottles, MOST seem to be applied to the OUTSIDE of the bottle, or sandwiched in a layer inside the plastic itself. Because the purpose of the coatings, to most of the manufacturers, is not to protect the beverage from exposure to PLASTIC, but to protect it from exposure to OXYGEN.

Yep. Many different coating and multi-layered options are available these days. You can 'dial up' just the requirements you need ant the manufacturers will provide the solution. In the case of spirits, at this juncture the preferred option is blow-molded PET with an interior bonded coat of Carbon.

By the way, all the closures used in existing GLASS bottle spirits, like synthetic corks and plastic caps, even the aluminum caps, are nowhere near as good as the Barrier bottles. But that's an area they are working on.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:46 pm

Will someone please give hard facts/research/medical/biological/physiological/etc. evidence about how 40% alcohol stored in plastic containers over X amount of time causes harm to the human body when ingested - and how that happens exactly?

I don't need anything more than my own experience to decide that I don't care for using plastics. Lots of folks have had plastic hydrometer jars... They all know what I mean... I've put spirits in plastic bottles and gotten funky plastic flavors in it. The chemists comments on the subject and a healthy skepticism of the FDA's real masters lead me to choose a no plastic ethic. I don't need some internet article of proof that alcohol and plastic are not great together.... I've seen it with my own eyes and tasted it too.

Good to see you post Harry. I do feel better informed.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:05 pm

junkyard dawg wrote:

Good to see you post Harry. I do feel better informed.

Aye JD. That was the aim.

Post by **blanikdog** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:31 pm

Yup, me to too Harry. The more information we get, the more informed individual decisions we can take. Thanks

blanik

Post by **theholymackerel** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:23 am

Harry wrote:If anyone is truly interested in being better informed, google BARRIER TECHNOLOGY. and pet bottles for alcohols here...
http://tinyurl.com/9d4qg4

Interestin'.

If ya have any more links with good plastic/alcohol info please post 'em.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:17 am

yeah, cool technology at work there. Its surprising to me that some of those barrier technologies could be cost effective.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:28 pm

junkyard dawg wrote:yeah, cool technology at work there. Its surprising to me that some of those barrier technologies could be cost effective.

There's three basic Barrier Technologies. Each has specific uses in the packaging industry. Some are for oxygen-scavenging to prolong the shelf life of foods. Some are strictly a physical barrier between the food and the container itself.

The three types are:
Coating
Monolayer
Multilayer

In Coating...Bottles are blow-molded and then coated with a layer of material suitable for the designed end-purpose. In our case for alcoholic beverages it (the bottle) is coated on the inside with a layer of carbon. This is different to the other popular methods for obvious reasons.

Cost to manufacturers is at present between $6 and $8 per THOUSAND bottles. Less than a cent each to coat.

Read this...

http://www.ce-pip.com/docs/31-33_F345_PET_barrier.pdf

Post by **HookLine** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:51 pm

Good stuff, Harry. While serious caution with plastics is the smart default position to take, that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an open mind to technical progress.

atticpc · Post by **atticpc** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:35 am

This is interesting.

I am one of the bold people who used to use plastic for storing normal bottle strength. Moved off that to glass. When I was storing in plastic most of what I was using was empty bottled water bottles. I never noticed any taste being added to the drink - but I think that it would be safe to state that there was probably no carbon coating on those bottles. Now re-using a plastic spirit bottle would be a very different thing as those bottles are designed to be used with alcohol.

Home Distiller

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