Strip run VS Distilit run

[W.S.C.beachman]

OK so I have been having some problems with my distillate tasting funny. I am trying to figure out what is going on. My ferment is ok I guess..sour to taste like wine, don't know if it is dry or not. I am starting to think maybe I am running my distillate run to fast. My thermometer says 188 deg f. when drips start coming out. I know I know it is supposed to start at around 160 and no matter how I position it it will not change. I start to get a solid stream coming out and it levels out at 190 deg. Then for the next 2.5 hours I have a steady stream going and collect around 3200ml...Does this sound more like striping run speeds and I should back it down a bit??? My finished product just taste funny. I wouldn't want to take a shot of it even after it airs for a day. My start alch. was around 115 proof and finished at 58 proof. It took a good 2 hrs to rise 10 deg. I don't know if that is to fast or not??? and if I back it down will it help the taste???

[Usge]

Are you collecting in separate jars? Given the temp you suggested it started, you should have been somewhere around 70-72% (that's 144 proof) when it first started coming out. 190F vapor temp is around 69% (138 proof). So, sounds like either your vapor temp measurement is off (not uncommon for therm readings to be off given placement, etc., differences), or your wash/mash or low-wines you were starting with...were quite low abv. Were you single running this? Or was this a 2nd run?

As you have probably observed, the vapor temp rises as the alc is depleted (or drops) as it goes. Also, you don't want to keep everything that comes out.
It should be separated into different jars, then tested (smell/taste) after a day or so of airing out. THEN you decide what to keep and what to recycle.

Your flow rate was not all that high....3200ml/150 mins = 21ml per min. It sounds like to me, there just wasn't very much alc in whatever you were running to start with. (which is why I asked if you were single running whatever this was). If what you were running was already stripped (ie., low-wines) then you must not be running very much of it to start with, and the starting abv of it would seem to have been abnormally low for some reason (that it only came out at 50% to start on a double run).

Lastly, finding a good flow-rate for your rig is going to be a personal journey. Every one is a little different. If you are running a still that is using cooling/reflux of any kind...most likely slower rates are going to be more the norm to get good results. If you are running a potstill, it's probably going to vary a lot more...with it not being uncommon that slightly higher flowrates on average (but not like a strip run) will give better results. And better results here is defined as what tastes and smells better to you. Some people find pushing their pots more into the stream area ..as opposed to dripping off...gives cleaner results and more hearts. You can wait till your into hearts in a run, then vary the speed and taste/smell it to find what works best for you and your rig. It's not really written in stone and it can vary given the design and size of your rig.

[W.S.C.beachman]

It was a second run that I had put about 2 qt 85 proof feints and hearts from first run in 4 gallons of 9% wash. My mash is coming out to 9% consitantly. Ill run my next run a bit slower and see how it turns out. I want a thumper and change things around to put more copper in the vapor path.

[Usge]

It was a second run that I had put about 2 qt 85 proof feints and hearts from first run in 4 gallons of 9% wash.

That's not a 2nd run. That's a strip run (first run) with feints. And here's how you figure the potential alc abv output per vol from it.
2 quarts @ 85 proof = 1892.2 ml x .425 (%) = 804 ml potential alc (@ 100%).
4 gals of wash @ 9% = 15137 ml x .09 (%) = 1362ml potential alc (@ 100%)
That equals combined 2166ml of potential alc at 100%. Given your figure of 3200ml total collected...that means your median abv was 67.6% (2166ml / 3200).

My mash is coming out to 9% consitantly. Ill run my next run a bit slower and see how it turns out. I want a thumper and change things around to put more copper in the vapor path.

I didn't say to run things "slower". I said you are already running fairly slow. I said you need to find the rate your still works best...and that for a reflux still that might be slower. And for a pot still that might be faster. Given your original figure that you got under 60% off of this run....my guess is you are running a pot still. If that's the case...I'd suggest that you keep making and running mash...till you save up 4 gals of "low-wines"...that is mash that has already been run once. And then run it a 2nd time along with your adjunct of feints. THAT...is a 2nd run. And it will give you much better results.

[W.S.C.beachman]

Cool,
My proof of all hearts combined was 96 proof and feints( heads and tails with some of the hearts was 88 proof). I know that feints is heads and tails combined but I had left over hearts for what I was doing. It is a pot still no reflux head just straight pipe. I have been adding my feints with some of the hearts to the next run of mash. So I am doing a strip run of mash combined feints... Looks like I am going to have to get a 4 gallon glass container for my feints and just keep running my mash till I strip enough feints and hearts to do a nice keeper run. Ill continue to run the still fast and crank it up a bit as well. I am getting to know my still temps fairly well now and yes I collect in separate 300ml jars throwing away the first 200-250mls for Fore Shots. Judging by what I collect 2 runs would give me enough low wines and feints to do a 4+ gallon 2nd run. Would a all Feints run do better then a Low Wines Feints mix or is that one of those "well its up to you things" Its seems to me doing a run of 90 proof feints would be sketchy but a much higher finished alcohol level compared to mixing 90 proof with low wines. I would rather go with taste over higher alch. level though.

[Hawke]

That's a 'Kinda up to you' type run. But, to be a true 'second run' product, it should contain mostly low wines, (everything collected during a first run)
With your size still, I would do 2 or 3 'first runs' with no cuts at all, then a spirit, or second run, tossing the first 150ml per 5 gallon wash as foreshots. (make proper cuts)

[W.S.C.beachman]

Man I don't know how I got half assed backwards on all this. I have spent countless hours reading and rereading the info on this site.
I got two big jars of collected spirit now and will continue to run mashes till I get enough "low Wines" collected spirit to rerun in a big 4 gallon run.

Ok so the liquid in the pot that I put back in to the mash on a UJSSM also known as "backset" is trash except for the amount of backset i put in to the sour mash which in my case is 1 gallon cause I am only doing a 25% backset sour mash.

Now if you have a reflux column is it still necessary to do the whole process or does it come out the reflux column similar to doing a spirit run out of the pot still?? I say no regardless rerun collected (low wines) for spirits!!

[Hawke]

A reflux run can be done in one pass, but not at full speed.
It's best to do a stripping run in a pot, then the spirit run in the reflux rig.

[Usge]

Don't worry beachman....you'll get it.

wash/mash/beer = is how you create alc by fermenting.

low-wines = wash/mash/beer that has been run/stripped (ie., a stripping or single run) to reduce it's volume and concentrate the alc . 5 Gal of 8-10% becomes 1 gal 35-45%. You collect all of this in a single container (ie. no cuts)

distillate/spirit run or 2nd run = is traditionally/typically a run of "low-wines" plus an adjunct of feints (if you have them from previous runs). Spirit run for potstill is traditionally done on 2nd run, after the mash/wash/beer has been run once already. BUT, it can also be done on any combination (ie., low-wines, feints, mash)..flavor profile for each being different. This is the run you collect into separate containers and do "cuts" on (ie., heads/hearts/tails)

feints = that part of a spirit run that you did not keep (ie., that did not make the cut...heads/tails)

backset = left over mash/wash/beer in the pot from a "single" /first run. Leftovers inside the pot from a 2nd run are discarded.

Whiskey is traditionally double run on a pot still. Single run whiskey has a different taste than double run. That's entirely up to you and your taste. Try it both ways and see. You wont' get near as much alc/distillate out of a first run as you do when you do a doublin run. And the flavor, to me, is less refined and more raw tasting. Some people prefer it that way. Again..up to you. You can, as you already have...experiment with combinations of single/double, etc. ie., 3 gals low wines 1 gal of mash, 1 gal of feints...etc. Or any combination thereof. But, just to have a marker to start from...I'd try double-running first. Then change it up after you get that down. That way, you know what you are changing. You can save what you have now, and use it as feints later.

Some people also use detuned reflux stills or hybrids (pot with a packed column, etc.) and do "single" runs because they have enough reflux that a double run is not necessary to reach the desired abv or level of purity. I've found the flavor on this to be different as well..although it is more subtle. And there are plenty of people who use these kinds of stills who still prefer to double run whiskey. I think the point to remember here is...that flavor..such as for whiskeys, brandy, etc., comes from the impurities (ie congeners and esters that also make up heads and tails in their more concentrated forms). If you strip all that out and highly concentrated abv levels, you have vodka. (or slightly flavor tinged vodka) that then has to be watered "way" down to reach drinkable spirit range. ie....it tastes like water. If you are making whiskey...you don't want an entirely efficient process. In my experience, single run whiskey tastes a little dirty. Double run tastes sufficiently more refined while still having plenty of flavor. Triple run is very clean....too clean. And using "any" mash/wash in a spirit run, while adding some texture/flavor...also adds back that sort of unrefined "dirty" taste to me that comes from early congeners/esters that usually get cleaned up, more refined on a 2nd run. That's just my personal taste. Everybody different. I've also tried staggered run....use first low-wines, with 4 gals wash, strip it and save everything. Then, use the 2 gals low wines from that run, with 3 gals of wash/mash for next run, strip it down and save all that. Then use the 3+ gals from that with just a gal or so of mash/wash to top it up to 5 gal and do a slower/spirit/2nd run on that. It sort of has a little of everything...single run, double run, triple run. In the end, I thought the double run was better. Just my taste. Got to figure throughout history...people tried every which a way to run this stuff. And I imagine there's a reason why "double run" on whiskey has been handed down as it has.

[W.S.C.beachman]

Thanks Usage,
The amount of info. on this sight is endless. I like it when it is in a post like that cause it makes it sooo much easier to not get side tracked. I read one thing and clink on a link and then I am reading another thing which leads to another thing....LOL

Cool now Thursday night Ill run my mash and have 1.5 gallons of Low wines saved for the spirit run, but I have some thing else I will mix with 2 galls of backset to do a three gallon run see what I get, hope fully have a apply cider taste,...will see. I just cant ferment and distill fast enough..I need more time off work and family free...