Natural vs. artificial ingredients.

[pomiataa]

There is one thing bothering me since the first time I started learning this hobby trough Internet. Here pot design safety is taken seriously - no plastics, rubber or something that contaminates the product.

What about wash ingredients?

Why use chemicals instead of natural ingredients?

Chemical vitamins and nutrients, and the ones occurring naturally in plants are not the same thing. Would you eat cardboard mixed with protein powder and multivitamins and minerals? Doing the job does not always mean – it is doing it right.

For centuries alcohol is made with natural ingredients – grain, fruit or sugar?
In many cases using natural ingredients as yeast nutrient will not cost more.

Using more yeast compensates to a certain point the lack of real nutrients, but using huge amounts of it creates more esters. So we end up with only heads and tails.

I understand, this is where the reflux column and activated carbon comes, to make bad testing alcohol acceptable. But did anyone make a research on the effects of huge surface packing of copper and the so-called stainless still. There are 46 types of stainless still and only a few of them are high quality. Who will make pot scrubbers from high quality stainless steel? The good quality stainless steel is not attracted by a magnet, scrubbers are. Can someone tell if the activated carbon is chemicals pure?

I am sorry, I don’t try to discourage anyone, but why experimenting with our health when there are methods used for centuries. I have nothing against technology, but I prefer to be cautious about what do I put into my body.

Could someone please comment on these questions?
Facts proven knowledge on this matter will be highly appreciated.
Hypothesis – we have plenty of them.

Even the lack of answers will be an answer to me.

[myerfire]

Is activated carbon pure????? I'm no genius, or engineer or chemist, but if it is carbon.......Do you do research like this at the grocery store????
myerfire

[lake]

im pretty sure a reflux still isnt just used to make bad tasting alcohol acceptable. its used by people that want a clean neutral spirit, higher abv%, and more precise cuts. also i would be pretty sure that most yeast nutrients sold in homebrew shops are safe to use for human consumption.

[Dnderhead]

What ingredients do you prefer in your wash? what do you eat? with out chemicals the only choice is grains
and what whould you cook in? most all metals have some contaminates that includes copper ,stanless,steel glass,clay
that leaves wood maybe cast iron.

I guess you whould make wooden fermenters ,, wooden stills???? and make grain mash,(if you raise your own) fruit does not have enough
nutrients on its own, sugar is out that has none (and chemically alerted),molasses is chemically altered. even potatoes,
fruits, and vegetables in the stores. and to answer about activated carbon most is made from coal,some coconut shells.

[pomiataa]

Is activated carbon pure????? I'm no genius, or engineer or chemist, but if it is carbon.......Do you do research like this at the grocery store????
myerfire

Hi myerfire,
I'm glad you answered.
If you were chemist or so, you would know that to produce activated carbon, dirrefent chemicals are used. This is why it is recommended to wash very well and boil it to remove the chemicals. The questions is: are they removed well with this huge surface area.
And yes, I do research at the grosery store what do I put into my mouth.
Just read the labels. Would you put those ingredients in your food when you cook?
This is why I prefer organic food.
It is everyone's personal choice.

[pomiataa]

im pretty sure a reflux still isnt just used to make bad tasting alcohol acceptable. its used by people that want a clean neutral spirit, higher abv%, and more precise cuts. also i would be pretty sure that most yeast nutrients sold in homebrew shops are safe to use for human consumption.

Hi lake,
beautiful nickname,
Thank you for sharing your beliefs.

[pomiataa]

What ingredients do you prefer in your wash? what do you eat? with out chemicals the only choice is grains
and what whould you cook in? most all metals have some contaminates that includes copper ,stanless,steel glass,clay
that leaves wood maybe cast iron.

I guess you whould make wooden fermenters ,, wooden stills???? and make grain mash,(if you raise your own) fruit does not have enough
nutrients on its own, sugar is out that has none (and chemically alerted),molasses is chemically altered. even potatoes,
fruits, and vegetables in the stores. and to answer about activated carbon most is made from coal,some coconut shells.

Hi Dnder,
I always appreciate very much your comments.
My choice is to avoid eating chemicals as much as possible. I don’t want to exchange my health for someone’s profit. Again, just my opinion. A personal choice.

Most of the stainless used in cooking in not attracted by magnets.
When copper cookware was used (some countries are still using them), it is coated with tin. It is believed that cooking in copper is not recommended. Distillation however is different. The fact it is used for centuries should prove – it is safe enough.
However, nobody did in the past a pot still with the huge surface of the pot scrubbers.

I am not against traditional methods. This is exactly my point. I want to find out if artificial compounds and chemicals in the wash are harmless to a reasonable point.
I am not against using food in washes.

For the fermenters we have another choice – glass. However, I believe food grade plastics should be harmless enough. The recycled triangle code 1 should be the best.

Not all sugar is chemically altered, but a bottle of booze will cost $1 more.

I do not want to create paranoia about safety, but I was under the impression people here care about safety. Many times I’ve been answered – in case of doubt, do not use. This is just common sense.

I am FOR making homemade alcohol (when you know what you are doing), many generations in my family did it.

[alcodemon]

I can understand your desire to avoid eating chemicals. But there is a difference between toxic chemicals and preservatives. They all come from Mother Earth. Even poisonous gases are made from bits and pieces from the earth. No products are harvested from any other planet in the galaxy.

I am sure your mother fed you food that was fit for consumption without doing any research on the product. You're still here aren't you. And I bet her mother didn't read any labels about nutrition on the packaging.

Would you believe that arsenic was used as a preservative in beer a long time ago? That's when beer tasted like beer. I'm still here to tell the tale.

After reading topics in these forums, I can appreciate that some end results may have off-flavours. These topics are by some of the more experienced 'stillers. I am sure they would not tell you to use products which are detrimental to your health. Such as tomato paste (with preservatives), bicarb of soda (chemically modified) epsom salts etc.

I was led to believe that stainless steel was the No. 1 choice for distilling, brewing, kegging etc. If I had enough money I would try making these vessels out 99.999% gold.

Too many people have been brainwashed by so-called greenies and have converted to their ways.

I'll stick to the suggestions on this forum and keep learning.

Just my 2c worth.

Cheers

[pomiataa]

I can understand your desire to avoid eating chemicals. But there is a difference between toxic chemicals and preservatives. They all come from Mother Earth. Even poisonous gases are made from bits and pieces from the earth. No products are harvested from any other planet in the galaxy.

I am sure your mother fed you food that was fit for consumption without doing any research on the product. You're still here aren't you. And I bet her mother didn't read any labels about nutrition on the packaging.

Would you believe that arsenic was used as a preservative in beer a long time ago? That's when beer tasted like beer. I'm still here to tell the tale.

After reading topics in these forums, I can appreciate that some end results may have off-flavours. These topics are by some of the more experienced 'stillers. I am sure they would not tell you to use products which are detrimental to your health. Such as tomato paste (with preservatives), bicarb of soda (chemically modified) epsom salts etc.

I was led to believe that stainless steel was the No. 1 choice for distilling, brewing, kegging etc. If I had enough money I would try making these vessels out 99.999% gold.

Too many people have been brainwashed by so-called greenies and have converted to their ways.

I'll stick to the suggestions on this forum and keep learning.

Just my 2c worth.

Cheers

I wish you a long and healthy life with your beliefs.

Cheers!

[pomiataa]

I am beginning to have the impression that I am wasting my time.

[olddog]

I will second that, it's all right to be consious about what your eating but I think you are way over the top, bordering on the rediculous.

[Vodka_Master]

As for actual ingredients go,i use birdwashers recipe (tomato paste, lemon juice, sugar and yeast) i make sure the tomato paste has no conservatives or anything, so the only "artificial ingredient" is the sugar, since raw sugar is "refined" to make white sugar. But theres no avoiding it, nothing you can do about that, well except use unrefined sugar, that costs more and not worth it for the price difference, at least not in my eyes. As for the activated carbon, there is more than 1 way to produce some. But you are right, the most common one is to use chemicals as catalysts to lower temperature requirements and speed the process up. That is also why, on the parent site, it is suggested not to use the kind used in aquariums. As for the actual still, there isn't much choice in what materials to use. Stainless steel is corrosion resistance, and does not react with ethanol, so it is a good choice. It is true there are different grades of SS, witch will determine what it composes of and how resistant it really is to oxidation. Copper is used because it reacts with sulfide, preventing that chemical going into your drink and ruining the taste. Alcodemon has a good point. It all also depends what you consider "natural" and "artificial". If you think about it, natural or artificial, everything can kill you, the sun, the water you drink, some of the food you eat too. What you collect from your still and call the good stuff, ethanol, is a chemical than can kill you, just like so many other things. You just have to take everything in moderation, thats all there is to it.
Cheers

[pomiataa]

Do you guys read the posts before answering?

[alcodemon]

I'm sure that everyone who answers a post, will have undoubtedly read it first. How else could one reply to another's input or query?

My beliefs don't come into play here. We're talking distilling. I also wish for a long and healthy life. But after smoking and drinking for 46 years, I can see my last smoke at around 99 years of age (providing it's hand rolled and not the ones you buy in packets with all the salt petre and other poisons ).

If you have come across a good recipe or technique to distill, please share it with us here. I, for one, am still learning the basics and appreciate all the helpful info that I have acquired here.

Your statement:
If you care for life on earth - never do something, which makes someone very rich.

If you do care for life on earth, you will do things responsibly. The only one who gets rich is you by knowing you have done the right thing. As far as making someone very rich.........You have a computer, internet access, view these forums, surf on the web.........Bill Gates loves you.

So, by your statement, YOU should not make Bill Gates richER.

Anyhow, enough of preaching. Let's get back to 'stilling.

Cheers

[Bagasso]

Hi pomiataa. I understand the importance of being aware of what your putting in your body but there are 2 things that I would like to point out.

First off everything in this universe is made up of chemicals. Even if you have an element in it's most pure form it's called a pure chemical element. Even if you use all natural ingredients there will be safe chemicals and there can also be unsafe chemicals in these ingredients. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggplant

"On average, 20 lbs (9 kg) of eggplant contains about the same amount of nicotine as a cigarette."

Second just because something is artificial doesn't mean it's more dangerous than something natural. A perfect example of this is our hobby. We take something that is natural (wash fermented by yeast) and we eliminate the bad things (methanol, fusel oils, etc.). This makes our distillate processed (artificial) but safer than the natural product.

Edited to expand on first point.

[pomiataa]

"On average, 20 lbs (9 kg) of eggplant contains about the same amount of nicotine as a cigarette."

That’s fun. Some people eat 225 Kg of eggplant a day.
For the rest, if you did read my postings more carefully, your comments wouldn’t be necessary.
I am not against distilling.
What I mean is - beware of some still makers, willing to brainwash you that you need fancy and expensive equipment, instead of a pot and copper pipe, which you can buy for $30.
In today’s world every lie repeated 1000’s of times becomes a truth for many people.
Also, whom should you believe – hundred of years of proven recipes or some people you don’t know, who experiment with your health?
Is it so difficult to understand the concept of common sense?

[pomiataa]

I'm sure that everyone who answers a post, will have undoubtedly read it first. How else could one reply to another's input or query?

My beliefs don't come into play here. We're talking distilling. I also wish for a long and healthy life. But after smoking and drinking for 46 years, I can see my last smoke at around 99 years of age (providing it's hand rolled and not the ones you buy in packets with all the salt petre and other poisons ).

If you have come across a good recipe or technique to distill, please share it with us here. I, for one, am still learning the basics and appreciate all the helpful info that I have acquired here.

Your statement:
If you care for life on earth - never do something, which makes someone very rich.

If you do care for life on earth, you will do things responsibly. The only one who gets rich is you by knowing you have done the right thing. As far as making someone very rich.........You have a computer, internet access, view these forums, surf on the web.........Bill Gates loves you.

So, by your statement, YOU should not make Bill Gates richER.

Anyhow, enough of preaching. Let's get back to 'stilling.

Cheers

Did the idea that you can use a computer and Internet without Bill Gates, crossed your mind?
For the rest I am not truing to convince you in anything. It’s your life.
I am just expressing my opinion.

Cheers!

[Bagasso]

In your original post you wrote

What about wash ingredients?

Why use chemicals instead of natural ingredients?

Chemical vitamins and nutrients, and the ones occurring naturally in plants are not the same thing. Would you eat cardboard mixed with protein powder and multivitamins and minerals? Doing the job does not always mean – it is doing it right.

For centuries alcohol is made with natural ingredients – grain, fruit or sugar?
In many cases using natural ingredients as yeast nutrient will not cost more.

The point about the eggplant was that natural ingredients can also contain dangerous chemicals. Also I think you are wrong in saying chemical vitamins and nutrients and natural ones are not the same. I agree that plants often cantain other things that are also good for you or that help other nutrients be better utilized but chemicaly the nutrients are the same. Just take ethanol for example. It doesn't matter if it is made from fruit, grains or sugar the ethanol that is made is the same and your body is going to react the same no matter what it was that you fermented.

Also, whom should you believe – hundred of years of proven recipes or some people you don’t know, who experiment with your health?
Is it so difficult to understand the concept of common sense?

I question everything, even hundred year old recipes. In my country they say that if you want your distillate to really kick then you take a barrel of corn and fill with water and the secret ingredient is to defecate into the wash. Let it ferment and then distill. Now they may have been doing this for hundreds of years and the truth is that once the wash boils any fecal matter should be rendered inert but they can keep their proven recipe.

[Dnderhead]

I do not know if I like your recipe or some that Iv herd about with a dead animal threw in
you mite call it "road kill bourbon"

this is what makes it confusing ,,this is the definition of natural foods

* Natural foods *
Natural foods are derived from plants and animals and should undergo no processing or chemical alternations
so if you want :natural ingredients: then then you need whole grain,fruit or non processed sugar(s).
and if recipes are not on this site then we can fined them.

[pomiataa]

"road kill bourbon"

[pomiataa]

In my country they say that if you want your distillate to really kick then you take a barrel of corn and fill with water and the secret ingredient is to defecate into the wash.

Can you share with us some more recipes from your country, please?

[Bagasso]

I just want to make it clear that that is not my recipe. My wash only uses pee as a source of nitrogen

O.K. not really but I think it would work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea

"is the main nitrogen-containing substance in the urine of mammals"

and

"Urea is highly soluble in water and is, therefore, also very suitable for use in fertilizer solutions"

and in keeping with the topic. It is all natural.

[toofless one]

and in keeping with the topic. It is all natural.

you got a genuine LAUGH OUT LOUD from me. none of that fake "lol"!

now my office mate is looking at me. gotta go!

[HookLine]

The good quality stainless steel is not attracted by a magnet, scrubbers are.

It is not true that only non magnetic stainless is good quality and safe.

1. Only austentitic stainless is non magnetic, at the point of initial manufacture. All other forms of stainless are inherently magnetic. (By magnetic I mean a magnet will be attracted to them, to some degree, ie ferromagnetism.)

2. If you cold work/machine or weld austenitic stainless it tends to become weakly magnetic. (310 and 316 grades only exhibit this trait to a very small degree, if at all.) Check the barrel on a stainless keg. It is usually made from 304 grade and will be slightly magnetic, because the stainless sheet it was formed from has been rolled into a barrel shape, and welded. It has been worked. (Incidentally, the hoops at the top and bottom of a keg are usually a different grade of stainless from the barrel, and are more magnetically attractive.)

"Some ferromagnetism [of austenitic grades] may be noticed due to cold working or welding."

http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-Stainless-Steel.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How do you think they make scrubbers? Either by turning thin ribbons of stainless from a block of stainless in a lathe. Or by winding flat ribbons of stainless into spirals. Either way involves 'cold working' the material, and hence making it weakly magnetic.

The fact that a stainless scrubber is weakly magnetic does not mean it is not safe.

I have tested several brands of stainless scrubber, and all were weakly magnetic.

3. No doubt some other grades of stainless are okay for our purposes, but I do not know which ones for sure, (but probably the 200 series is okay, another austenitic stainless).

4. Stainless steel is stable (ie effectively inert for our purposes) to at least 300ºC, way above the temps we are working with. It is not breaking down and releasing anything into the vapour in an alcohol still.


Also, the plastics resin code you are looking for is actually number 2, HDPE.


And, frankly, the whole 'natural v. synthetic chemicals' argument is largely bogus. There are safe synthetic chemicals, and lethal natural ones, and vice versa. The safety of a particular chemical compound depends entirely on its properties, not if it is natural or synthetic.

"Urea is highly soluble in water and is, therefore, also very suitable for use in fertilizer solutions"

and in keeping with the topic. It is all natural.

Urea is a good example of how a 'natural' compound can be unsafe. It can form ethyl carbamate in the wash, which you do not want. Stick to ammonium or nitrate forms of nitrogen.

[blanikdog]

Do you guys read the posts before answering?

I don't.

blanik

[Bagasso]

Hook, although it was in jest I understand the need to make sure no one takes it seriously.

The bad news is that it's already in our wash:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_carbamate

"This reaction occurs much faster at higher temperatures, and therefore higher concentrations of urethane are found in beverages that are heated during processing, such as brandy, whiskey, and other distilled beverages.

The urea in wines results from the metabolism of arginine or citrulline by yeast or other organisms. Although the urea cannot be eliminated, it can be minimized by controlling the fertilization of grape vines, minimizing their heat exposure, and other actions."

Of course adding more wouldn't help.

[pomiataa]

The good quality stainless steel is not attracted by a magnet, scrubbers are.

It is not true that only non magnetic stainless is good quality and safe.

1. Only austentitic stainless is non magnetic, at the point of initial manufacture. All other forms of stainless are inherently magnetic. (By magnetic I mean a magnet will be attracted to them, to some degree, ie ferromagnetism.)

2. If you cold work/machine or weld austenitic stainless it tends to become weakly magnetic. (310 and 316 grades only exhibit this trait to a very small degree, if at all.) Check the barrel on a stainless keg. It is usually made from 304 grade and will be slightly magnetic, because the stainless sheet it was formed from has been rolled into a barrel shape, and welded. It has been worked. (Incidentally, the hoops at the top and bottom of a keg are usually a different grade of stainless from the barrel, and are more magnetically attractive.)

"Some ferromagnetism [of austenitic grades] may be noticed due to cold working or welding."

http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-Stainless-Steel.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How do you think they make scrubbers? Either by turning thin ribbons of stainless from a block of stainless in a lathe. Or by winding flat ribbons of stainless into spirals. Either way involves 'cold working' the material, and hence making it weakly magnetic.

The fact that a stainless scrubber is weakly magnetic does not mean it is not safe.

I have tested several brands of stainless scrubber, and all were weakly magnetic.

3. No doubt some other grades of stainless are okay for our purposes, but I do not know which ones for sure, (but probably the 200 series is okay, another austenitic stainless).

4. Stainless steel is stable (ie effectively inert for our purposes) to at least 300ºC, way above the temps we are working with. It is not breaking down and releasing anything into the vapour in an alcohol still.


Also, the plastics resin code you are looking for is actually number 2, HDPE.


And, frankly, the whole 'natural v. synthetic chemicals' argument is largely bogus. There are safe synthetic chemicals, and lethal natural ones, and vice versa. The safety of a particular chemical compound depends entirely on its properties, not if it is natural or synthetic.

"Urea is highly soluble in water and is, therefore, also very suitable for use in fertilizer solutions"

and in keeping with the topic. It is all natural.

Urea is a good example of how a 'natural' compound can be unsafe. It can form ethyl carbamate in the wash, which you do not want. Stick to ammonium or nitrate forms of nitrogen.

Hi HookLine,
I checked the link you provided,but the info was mostly for metalurgical purposes. Did you check what wikipedia sais about nickel (one of the main ingredients of stainless).
Multiply this by thousand of times because of the huge surface of stainless.
Many things are safe under a certain level and toxic above this level.
Take a look here under nickel toxicity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel#Toxicity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[HookLine]

If stainless is so dangerous in stills, then why is it used in virtually every commercial still, not to mention in most surgical and medical equipment, and in many permanent surgical implants?

Stainless is one of the safest and best tested food and medical grade materials known. If you think stainless is unsafe, then I suggest you give up stilling altogether, or invent a safer material.

[olddog]

Don't waste your time Hookline, this guy is just looking to argue for the sake of it.

[HookLine]

Looking that way. Another DestructoMutt.