Imagine if our hobby was legal

[goinbroke2]

I gave a drink to a chesty blond and he liked it...not sure why you want...oh I get it...

Dunno Fester, single agenda politicians never seem to go far...maybe you can add decriminalizing prostitution to your bill?

Some people were worried about my stuff making them go blind, I didn't care I fed em anyway...if they go blind how would they catch me? Ahh crap, that's not half as funny as it sounded in my head...

The only real problem I see with you going into politic's fester is the comments behind your back, you know, the "nice legs, shame about his face" BWAHAHAHA!


Hmm, whisky and lemonade pop...a fizzy whisky sour kind of thing...the first 6 or 7 were good...the last 4 were great!

Not sure if it's the drink or my tendancy tobe easily distracted by, ooh whats on tv, I thin..oops out of hey notice how cheese smells but stilltastesgoodahhcrap spilled adrinkonthekeyboard but ooh brightlights and shnythingsgotta gopee toolate it's okit's hercomputorchair anyway...whatwasIsaying?

[Dnderhead]

" many have the right intentions but loose to the "Bartering system". """if you want that you have to give up something I want.""
so to git legal distilling you mite have to give up gun rights or freedom of speech or some other.

[HookLine]

Lack of training and registration requirements do not seem to have produced any safety problems in New Zealand, and it has been legal there for well over a decade now.

I think the best system all round is to simply allow small scale, non-commercial, hobby stilling, like they do in NZ.

Compulsory design and manufacture standards for commercially supplied hobby stills is well worth considering.

I might also support a one-off, compulsory short training course and exam for hobby stillers. But once you have passed that there should not be any requirement for regular re-testing or any ongoing licensing fees.


I do support a limit on annual production and overall stilling capacity (ie maximum practical output rate) for hobby stilling.

I agree that somewhere around 100-150 litres of 40% is a reasonable amount per hobby stiller, per year. But like with hobby wine and beer, I see no reason for us to be keeping formal records, that is just more pointless paperwork that will not stop a single illegal commercial operation.

Probably the easiest and most effective suggestion I have heard for limiting overall production capacity is to limit boiler size, and the number of boilers. The rule could be something like 'total boiler capacity must not exceed 100 litres / 30 gallons'. This will seriously limit maximum practical output, and hence prevent anybody running an illegal commercial operation disguised as a hobby set-up.


There is also the issue of insurance, mainly house and personal/health. Insurance companies may not cover stilling related damages and injury from this hobby, even if it is legal.

If it is going to be legalized the first thing that we have to do make congress realize that it's currently unregulated, and that there is tax revenue to be generated. If it can be regulate or taxed you can get someone in congress it listen to you.

If I could pursue my hobby in peace, then I would pay the taxes.

The only tax the government will ever get from me through hobby stilling is indirectly when I buy stilling equipment, books and supplies, ie the sort of general sales tax most of us already pay.

But I will never agree to paying direct tax on my final product, on something I make myself, in small quantities, for purely personal use. Hobby wine and beer guys don't. People who grow their own food or make their own clothes or furniture don't. Why should hobby stillers?

Don't get sucked in to that trade off. I do not believe we are costing the government any significant lost revenue now, nor that we will if we become legal. Didn't happen with legalised hobby beer and wine, why should it happen with us?

Why should the government get any more tax than we already pay (indirectly), just for legalising our hobby? Don't see any advantage to us in that deal.

••••••••••

We only have to demonstrate two things to make our basic case for legalisation:

1. We can distil safely.

2. We are doing it on a strictly small scale, non-commercial, personal interest, hobby level, same as those in the wine and beer hobby.

[Dnderhead]

I believe we are setting a pretty good record for safety, out of over 5000 members no major accidents. compared to skying ,motorcycles and others we are doing good. Id say right along with cooking. I my self do not go along with distilling in your kitchen but if it were legal that whould not be necessary.
if it were the same limits as beer/wine say 500gal (1890l)* of wash that whould be 35 gal (132l ) of alcohol or once cut 70 gallons (264l) that is more than enough.at that amount you should be able to build up a reserve to age in barrels. at this time they do keep track of larg amounts of sugar/malts so it whould not be any more work than they are doing now.
*two people

[LWTCS]

Id say right along with cooking

I have been cooking ( not as a pro) since I was a kid. I use the big cast iron skillet at least once a week and I can tell you that thing this has hurt me more than makin booze ever did by a long shot.

[hstuurman]

I think legalice it, same to beer and wine.
The people who just wanna get drunk, never build or buy a still (to much work, or to expensive). Most of the people never start distilation they rather go to the store. So we will always be a small group, no problem for taxes!!!
Stay small, stay save and just for family, nobody will be harmed!!

And I think it will be fun to talk with other people about distilation, I love this forum, but I would like it even more to have some friends with who I can run a still or talk like we do on this forum.

I'm not living in the US, or (pittyfull) NZ, but overhere whe've got a strange law. For example: I'm allowed to grow marihuana for personal use (which is an illegal product), but it's illegal to make ethanol (which is a legal product).

Henk (yes, from the Netherlands)

[kingearwig]

Probably the easiest and most effective suggestion I have heard for limiting overall production capacity is to limit boiler size, and the number of boilers. The rule could be something like 'total boiler capacity must not exceed 100 litres / 30 gallons'. This will seriously limit maximum practical output, and hence prevent anybody running an illegal commercial operation disguised as a hobby set-up.

that would make this illegal. plus there would be nothing from stopping me from making a 30 gallon continuous setup that would do huge amounts.

[blind drunk]

There is also the issue of insurance, mainly house and personal/health. Insurance companies may not cover stilling related damages and injury from this hobby, even if it is legal.

Aside from personal injury to myself or others, this has always been my biggest concern. But the terror is what probably also what keeps me on my toes. bd.

[HookLine]

DSCN1645.JPG

that would make this illegal. plus there would be nothing from stopping me from making a 30 gallon continuous setup that would do huge amounts.

To be honest, I am not sure I see your point. Obviously you can break a stilling law if you want, you already do now. So what?

If we are going to go legal we will have to accept some capacity limits. Either still size, and/or volume of spirits per year. Gotta draw that legal hobby line somewhere.

Small & fair price for going legal, IMHO.

[rubber duck]

If you're running a 50 gallon still you really need to think about joining AA. We're all outlaws but 50 gallons is a different game altogether.

RD

[ScottishBoy]

If you're running a 50 gallon still you really need to think about joining AA. We're all outlaws but 50 gallons is a different game altogether.

RD

It's either that, or you have one HELL of an aging routine and really big basement...

[eddie]

I like the idea of similar legal limits being applied to home distillation as what are applied to home brewing of beer. There should be a legal limit to how much end product a person may produce in a year and a limit on the size of the boiler and it should be stipulated that all distilled product be for personal use only and not for sale. Also, as it already is with home brewing of beer, I believe it should be up to the individual states to decide for themselves if they want to allow home distillation and what limits might be imposed. Right now, I can legally brew up to 200 gallons of beer in a year per legal resident of my house. This is quite a bit more than I actually drink so I'm safe there. If a similar limit were imposed on distilling I would be very happy. I'm sure there are some who would argue that home brewing and home distillation harm commercial brewers but I don't believe that's true. Just look at the beer production and sales figures of the late '70s and how they compare to today. Sales and production are higher than ever. Not to mention that legal home brewing gave rise to the craft beer industry and the American brew-pub. It also benefits farmers who now have more customers hungry for their wares.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see nothing bad in any of this nor do I see any reason why similar results wouldn't be produced by home distilling.

Note:

200 gallons of distillate equals 845.6 liters. Not a paltry sum in my book.

[WalkingWolf]

I Note:

200 gallons of distillate equals 845.6 liters. Not a paltry sum in my book.

Or do you get the subsequent reduction due to it being concentrated? Say 50 gallons of distilled spirit.

[eddie]

I Note:

200 gallons of distillate equals 845.6 liters. Not a paltry sum in my book.

Or do you get the subsequent reduction due to it being concentrated? Say 50 gallons of distilled spirit.

No, I'm talking about finished product after distillation. If we were to each be allowed to produce 200 gallons of finished product per year per legal resident of our homes of legal drinking age, we would be allowed to produce 845.6 liters of finished product per year.

[Dnderhead]

maybe somthing like,, "not over 100 proof liters on premise".mite be a better way, then you could have some aging,and make more as it was used.you cant realy go by wash as I mite make 6% and you 15% wash.

[rubber duck]

I would regulate it by boiler size and the amount of mash on site at anyone time.

[HookLine]

No, I'm talking about finished product after distillation. If we were to each be allowed to produce 200 gallons of finished product per year per legal resident of our homes of legal drinking age, we would be allowed to produce 845.6 liters of finished product per year.

845 litres per year is equal to 16.25 litres per week, or 2.3 litres per day. (I presume you mean at standard commercial spirit strength of 40%.)

Hmm.

Sorry, but there is not the remotest possibility of getting those kind of seriously unrealistic quantities legalised for hobby level, non-commercial, personal use distillation.

maybe somthing like,, "not over 100 proof liters on premise".mite be a better way, then you could have some aging,and make more as it was used.you cant realy go by wash as I mite make 6% and you 15% wash.

It will probably be measured as pure ethanol equivalent, which gets around any difference in wash or dilution strengths, and allows a direct comparison to hobby beer and wine. Something like you can make the equivalent of 30 litres of pure ethanol per year, which equals about 75 litres of 40%, or about 1.5 litres a week, a much more reasonable amount.

[goose eye]

after they legalize it they cant control it

so im tole

[rubber duck]

after they legalize it they cant control it

so im tole

They can't control it now.

[Dnderhead]

in a way goose is right,with wine/beer they have.the law states ,"for your own consumption" and many are braking that by holding parties,giving some away,
and transporting.basic you make it you drink it, no one else and it is not to leave your premises, transporting you need to be a bonded carrier,,even giving some away you need to have a distribution licence.

[goose eye]

duck right now they got a key to your car your house your life with one drop.
they aint ever gonna wipe it out but landscape gonna change alot if they start tryin to.

so im tole

[Trev]

I have found in Aus the fact that's its a criminal offence is in someways making it more dangerous

the homebrew shops are selling still's with the implied usage for alcahol but because technically there for water or essential oils
they are under no obligation or liability to make the still's safe for production of alcahol

I was given a cheap boiler bought from a homebrew store, I checked all seals it was airtight until halfway through a run it changed shape
due to cheap materials and started to leak lot's, got really scared, one spark that day and i would have died

since then i have built my own (pressure cooker + leibig) and i know i am safe

if it was legalized it might save someother ppl from this risk in the future

[oakspring]

It should be treated in the states no different than home brewing beer and wine, i.e. for home consumption only, no trading or selling of your product, 200 gallons per year by the head of the household with no forms or fees. When you really think about it, very little would change from where it is today other than just being more out in the open. Oh a few more folks might take it up but I really doubt that beer or wine home brewing puts much of a dent in the commercial manufacturers as most people would not be bothered making their own when it's easier and cheaper (no equipment/materials & time) just to buy it out of a store.

[ifpo238]

I have to imagine that my local homebrew shop would love it. They already sell stuff for making cheese, vinegar, etc. I'm sure they'd be delighted to sell distilling equipment. And, of course, people would jump in to start producing those products openly, and sales would be taxed. It's hard for me to imagine this being bad for the economy or for gov't revenue. Can distilling be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing? Sure. But guns and cars are legal, and I can go buy my fill of gasoline at the corner station...

[TonyL]

I don't know how the government of NZ handles it, but here in the US I'd think the government would want their hooks into our hobby if it were legal.
I've tried to think my way through Hobby Distillation of Drinking Spirits in The United States federal requirements.
At a minimum they would want it safe and they would want some money.
So to that end my stray thoughts are these:

Competence:
Some form of written test that covers the basics of
Fermentation
Distillation
Safety
A photograph or design drawing and matreial list of the construction of the still.

Taxation:
An annual permit (much like the fuel alcohol producers permit) that would require the distiller to record their production and a promise not to distribute the spirit. Perhaps an annual $50 processing fee? (fuel alcohol is a free annually renewing permit with a simple one page production and consumption record due each year by the end of January). They would want a "Household Limit" of perhaps 25 proof-gallons (50%ABV) per year - about 2 liters a week. They impose limits on homemade beer and wine. Of course beer and wine is on the "honor system" and no paperwork is required.

I have no illusions that legal hobby distilling will become a reality in the US soon but it was only about 25 years ago or so that hobby wine and beer making was illegal here. I believe it is a matter of "when" and not "if". We must let them have their hooks and be willing to meet them more than half way on this. The key points, as I see them, are competence and safety. This forum extols these virtues.
Because of the perceived taboo against unsafe and dangerous homemade booze, the loss of heavy taxes going into federal coffers and the government’s inherent desire to protect us from ourselves this will be a hard fought campaign.

Definetly realistic.

[TonyL]

The US government is all about money. It's money first, safety second.

[Nightforce]

I do like what was quoted from Fester. A simple permit, i.e. not a 25 page book to fill out, and a distillers test, information that covers the basics so you prove competency and that you're not going to poison/kill yourself or family when they drink it. Something simple like a short course, similar to what was done with hunter safety and a drivers license. Hell, Big Brother could even spin it to their benifit; allowing the general population more rights while keeping laws on the books for the moonshiners, increasing revenue by a small license fee and stimulating the economy by the number of people that would get into the "hobby" because it would now be legal. It might even combat the moonshiners too, more people making their own under a legal license means less people buying from illegal stills. Hmmm, sounds all win/win to me.

I think the limit should be set a bit higher though, to allow for people that would want to make a bunch up front and age it a LONG time. I guess that might get into storage of flammable liquids though.