Open Letter to All concerned

[olddog]

I should not have to explain my actions, but I will in an attempt to clear the air.

My arguement with Joe and others was not about any personal conflict, but my right to have a freedom of choice.

I built my plated column the Magic Flute, and posted the results from this build on the forum to share with other members.
I declared the build a success, as I was getting 92ABV with flavor and a take off speed comparable with a potstill, I consider the success of a still build to be judged on the quality of the product it produces.

I was then told by Joe that the build was a failure, and defective, and that bubble plates should have been used.
I maintain the right to build whatever I wish, and make my own choices, and will argue to the hilt my right to make those choices.

Others who have built stills of this type have all made their own modifications on the original design, and it is their right to do so.

It is unfortunate that one member recieved a tempory ban, but this was nothing to do with the discussion at hand, it was because of the offensive obscene language, more than the odd expletive used in his reply, and he was given two weeks to cool off.


OD

[goose eye]

didnt no nothin bout all thems goin ons but there rules here for a reason.

hope yall can make amends. sometimes you gotta think bout the greater good
so im tole

[Barney Fife]

What Goose say.

There needs to be some give and take if we're to take this hobby to its fullest potential.

Joe's issue with the flutes is that they're not yet perfected, but OD has more or less stopped the R&D and gone into producing them. I'm with Joe; the fact that the first plate has an issue points to it not being quite there, yet. Close? Yes! Effective? Yes! Perfected and impossible to improve upon? No! Heck, Larry(LWTS) hits higher ABV with his thump tower than you do with the flute, and his thump tower is a form of bubble plate column, too.

OD, your fabrication skills are beyond par; you have a gift! But Joe told you months ago that your plate holes were too large, and I thought so too(and I believe there are too few per plate). You now have tried smaller holes in a new build, and report that the first plate is now working better. This is great! An improvement! Joe was correct. All he would like(I believe, as I have never exchanged thoughts with him directly) is that you stop claiming these flutes have been perfected, and instead, tell it like it is, and that's that they work damn well, but we, as a collective group, still need to go forth and study further and try to refine them. And from what he's found, and being the only one here who HAS built and run both bubble plate and perforated plate stills, I trust that he has a really good base to speak from. He's also not building and selling stills, so he has no vested interest, other than helping us all go forward and move the craft forward. Having started up a couple businesses myself, I know he's swamped with work and tons of things to do, and coming back here to help us all takes time he doesn't have much of, and really is a labor of love.

Be a little more forthcoming and accepting to criticism and suggestions, and we'll all gain from it. Please.

[Austin Nichols]

Yeah I read it all and dont really give a shit about who's got the biggest nutz, or who has more authority or experience.

For me deep in a learning curve in this art I take everything with a grain of salt when the guru's start debating, it might confuse me a little but I think we all can gain something from what just happened, I know I did so I went out into the shed and built my bubble plates.

Thanks for the inspiration OD, and thanks for keeping all your toys in the cot

If others want pack up their solder and mapp gas after this little tiff, then I reckon it shows their true self.

FUCKEM!!!

[DOLIKEADRINK]

Yeah I read it all and dont really give a shit about who's got the biggest nutz, or who has more authority or experience.

For me deep in a learning curve in this art I take everything with a grain of salt when the guru's start debating, it might confuse me a little but I think we all can gain something from what just happened, I know I did so I went out into the shed and built my bubble plates.

Thanks for the inspiration OD, and thanks for keeping all your toys in the cot

If others want pack up their solder and mapp gas after this little tiff, then I reckon it shows their true self.

FUCKEM!!!

Yer so there what he said, I better go to bed now the bottle of UJSSM is all goooonne

Cheers: Dolikeadrink

[MuleKicker]

if the likker that come out the bizness end be good shit, who's to say the still aint no good. takes an excellent driver to make even the fastest sports car perform. same goes with stillin. you could have the best state of the art commercial whiskey still, but if you cant drive it you might as well throw it in the garbage. If OD wouldnt have put the sight glasses in the flute we wouldnt have the argument of the bottom plate working or not. just the comfirmation that the still produces great likker. which in the end is what we are after. Right?
The truth is, none of us can say one way or the other who is doing it right or who is doing it wrong...(unless yer runnin that PVC still posted a while back ) all we have to go on is what the builder/stiller post. If OD says the flute makes great likker, well than isnt it a success????

[LWTCS]

Was not that long ago that not so many people even had a qualified opinion about how well this,,,,,,,or these kinds of builds would work. Never mind work well.

Coulda swore I read some where that these plates (bubble and perf.) would not work well at all on the hobby scale. Also read (pretty sure) that their was a great deal of skeptisizm about the evil twins working too. Recon they did.

But a hand full of people worked (together) to prove and perhaps disprove a few things. collaberate, recommend, observe,,,,change their minds, clarfy a hunch or two,,,,,,,,,,,,, evolve I recon. Also, I recon these folks were reckless enough to spend the cash on the copper too. All for th sake of the great pleasure building can bring and sharing their enthusiasim.

Had some really good energy round here,,,,at least for the interested participants. But for a time there NOBODY had all the answers....NOBODY. Till the people building and running these things got more familiar with the behavior. And IMO, NOBODY here or there, is so intimate with this design that they now have all the answers.

Also, the concept of efficiency has a different meaning for different disciplines within the hobby.

Expensive? compared to a _________ still,,,I guess so. But these stills are a blast to build and a blast to run. Ain't as much as a boat or motorbike.

Wish we could get back to helping each other.

And finally, at no point do I ever recall reading the Flute runs would not smear.
Quite the contrary. I recall OD saying how (and I'm paraphrasing) strange it was to take tails while producing 90+

I feel kinda home sick.

[Azframer]

I would have to agree with Barney Fife on this, and I don't think either are a bad person or are better than the other. But you do have to give kudos to Joe for who is running a business that he takes the time to post here and share ideas and experiences. Even while HD was down he still documented ideas to share. If your still makes great likker and you have taken all the steps you intend to take it is a success. But if you are still striving to build it better it is best to share ideas until till all exhausted, then you can figure what was best bubble plates or perforated plates whatever. Either way if you share ideas and are successful then share the success.

[Usge]

I'm still trying to figure out what the "perfect" still is. And which stills are "perfected". And for whom?

[MaxT]

Interesting that a few people here have commented on the fact that Joe should be given more kudos because he runs a business and still posts.
Are his hours spent sharing info (rather than being with his family for eg) worth more than anyone else's hours?

I think the issue is how you present yourself on a forum. Manners don't cost much, and I don't care how experienced you are, if you come across sounding like an arrogant prick, then your message gets dismissed anyway (this is directed at all sides).

Sometime we just need to (politely) agree to disagree.

[rednose]

Maybe some folks are awaiting a posts of my side, here it is.

I have learned my first steps of distilling in HD and developed on a certain percentage base a business which I’m running right now (I was reading and learning on several other sites and books as well); I’m thankfully for that to many folks I had a good connection during this time.

One of my favorite has been OD because we interchanged ideas on builds and that was how the flute was born. Am I right OD?

OD was one of my defenders when I got banned for two weeks because I posted a small joke in a plastic topic that went out of the hands of the mods, it was intended to cool down the situation, nothing more but I got banned and Tater said it was so because he told so.

After that I didn’t post for some weeks, even that my ban got eliminated after 4 days, because I still was pissed off but when KS in one of his posts mentioned that it’s not needed to have a over pressure valve in a perforated still but in a bubbled still I couldn’t hold and posted my opinion. This was intended to keep security as #1 nothing else and I want to repeat that I would not run ANY still without this 15$ security investment.

I got attacked (by immature words) from OD who was talking this build as perfect and he told me that my opinion is based on seeing only one side, the opposite was the case. He proved by himself that his design didn’t work well using at the end smaller and more holes and there is much more to take in account.

You can get ethanol out of any still but the final result depends of the right design on the right use and as I said many times, perforated stills are made for continuous runs where the conditions don’t change ever 7/24, not for batch runs where conditions continuously change during the run. The reason to use perforated sieves in continuous stills is mainly a cost subject in the industry, no one company which makes craft stills use perforated sieves and that should tells us something.

I have built and run both designs of stills and if anybody ever does the same will see and taste what I was talking about.

I have left my opinion only for the final task, to build a nearly perfect home distilling still in a reasonable size in a great community, I had no other interest than helping to archive this, I’m not a still seller, neither the brightest light under the sun but I’m a mechanical engineer by profession.

Ignorance and bad use of mod power made me feel that this isn’t the place I want to be, I like a well based conversation but not a “I’m right because I’m right” opinion without any prove.

I have moved to what many folks say "the dark side forum" but feel much better there as those folks listen and give their opinion based on scientific facts and common sense.

That said I’m not willing to carry on here in HD, see it as your advantage or loss, that’s by you.

At the end I would like to give my special thanks to Larry, Kiwi, Goose and Dunder (and many other great floks) which always have been my favorite buddies cause of their way to behave and more than that cause of their incredible skills.

That said I wish all of you a great future, take care in security questions (neiter overkill it) and don’t forget that there is much more than the internet, the real life.

Joe

[ammo man]

Dang Joe, I hate to see you go. I am not a still builder even though I did build new_moonshiners VM still. I have learned a lot from your posts. And OD I say the same to you. I understand about people getting their feelings hurt. It has happened to me, and I hate to admit that it is hard for me to forgive and forget.

You fellows have so much to offer to people like me. I wish you both could forgive and forget a little and continue posting on this forum. Please both of you go to bed tonight and pray for strength to get over your hurt feelings and continue to post on this forum.

Bert

[goose eye]

been my pleasure rednose

[myles]

There can be no such thing as "the perfect still" as everyones interpretation plays a part. I think everyone can contribute where they like, have a disagreement, pop in when they feel like it - or not - personal choice. Be a shame not to have Joe's input in the future.

Don't burn boats.

[Barney Fife]

True, there is no one perfect still design, but what I referred to was "perfected", in that we -can- perfect a given design choice in a given size, if we keep at it. In the least, we can, and should, strive to keep tweaking these new designs through further tweaks, brought-on through common sense and a bit of science, knowledge, and engineering. A year ago, we kept being told that plate columns would not work at all for hobby uses, and we've already shot down that notion; let's not stop refining now!

[Usge]

Barney, with all due respect...who the hell is stopping the progress of the "flutes" from going forward? It's continuing on as we speak. The only problem has been people getting their neck hair up over someone else's opinions. That doesn't stop any of the research and refinement from going forward. The fact that OD is happy with his still as is...in no way stops others from continuing this on..using the groundwork he and others laid down, making new versions with the mods Joe suggested (or not), making entirely different designs off the old ones, etc. . But, what should have been just a fork in the road...turned into a car rolling off the cliff on fire. All we can do now is gawk at it and then move on.

And just for the record...there are still plenty of gooseneck stills producing damn fine spirits in commercial production all over the world. I think there should be room for everybody. It's the "inefficiencies" that make flavored spirits what they are. If you ask me...yall got yer hat on backwards.

[Manback]

Everyone (except me ) acts like a dick sometimes. It's part of being human.

Bridges may be burnt here, no doubt rednose will be sorely missed but if he feels it's time for him to leave, he has to run with that feeling. The good news is, he and OD will most likely both be just fine in the long run. Doubtless the universe is unfolding as it should be.

Let's just let this go eh? Even now this argument is perpetuating (see posts above!). Hope to run into both of yas later on. Either way, good luck Joe!

[LWTCS]

It's the "inefficiencies" that make flavored spirits what they are. If you ask me...yall got yer hat on backwards.

Indeed 100% agree with that.

I am usually wrong but I'll say this anyway.

The flutes produce a potstilled product and should not be compared to the efficiencies of the other types of reflux designs........unless U want to

[blind drunk]

I'll miss Joe's input but "a man got to do what he got to do." The Grapes of Wrath

bd.

[Barney Fife]

Barney, with all due respect...who the hell is stopping the progress of the "flutes" from going forward?

Nobody, as we see that OD has tried smaller holes on a recent one, too. But what got the spat started in the first place was Joe suggesting that these flute(BTW, that has got to be the worse name for any still head. Ever! ) builds should be tried with bubble cap plates instead, as the science of distillation, and his direct experience shows them better suited for batch distilling, like we do. Instead of even considering it, the flute fans get all up in a huff and keep reiterating that the flutes work, so why change. So in the end, while further refinement of the flutes is on-going, it's quite likely that putting the same effort into bubble cap plate flute development would lead to a better still head, sooner. Sometimes, true progress means making a U turn and starting-over in the other direction.

I do agree about the plain 'ol pot stills having their place, also. While I've made up a few versions of columns over the past while, I still run my short pot still column as often as I don't. And while I don't get the yield from it that I do from the columns, it makes damn fine rum!

[LWTCS]

(BTW, that has got to be the worse name for any still head. Ever! )

Have no opinion on that.
But is it any better that The Majic Flute is also a very famous opera composed by a very famous composer?

Figger'd I'd throw that out there

[olddog]

I was not going to make any response to postings in this thread, as the purpose was meant to clear the air, and point out that it should be free to members to make personal choices, and unless it's a point of safety, they should be able to decide for themselves without being told "Your wrong, I'm Right ".

1, I have never denied that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

2, I have never stated things should only be done my way. Rockchucker is doing it his way, also KS, Spooky, Jethro Bodine, Austin Nichols, Scottish Boy and more are all putting there own twist to the idea with no complaint from me.

3, I am perfectly happy with my build, and I aint going to pull it to pieces and rebuild it because others have different opinions.

4, I do not sell stills, I will build a still for members who do not have the skills to build themselves, but only by their request, and are built for the cost of materials, and a very small consideration for the hours needed to build.



I am going to lock this thread, as it seems to be heading for another shit fight which was not it's intention.



OD