aging in 5ltr oak barrel

[NcHooch]

NcHooch, your post made up my mind. Now, I wantz one!

I gues the best method is to get one myself. Fill it and not listen to any rekommendations. And just taste the stuff as I go along Kinda worried there wont be any left once it gets perfect though.......

LOL , that lil barrel looks smaller that it really is ... but I recon you could put a serious dent in it in a year with some generous weekly samplin.


NChooch

[NcHooch]

Mine's been in there for 10 weeks now, so yesterday I loosened the bung and poured a jigger in a shot glass and diluted it down to 80 proof, poured it over ice, and damn! it sure is good... oaky and corn with a hint of fruit and vanilla , super smooth, and smells like corn & vanilla.
I'll test it again in 2 weeks
NChooch

[The Baker]

Ok I tried some of the sherry to see how woody it is , so far no wood taste and it seems to really be soaking into the oak. I also got a wine barrel from a friends' vinyard It is awesome but 60 gallons! I hate take it apart for the staves but I might. Any recomendations?

You put sherry in it first eh? That might help to mellow it out (the barrel that is).

Oh man 60 gallons. Not sure how I am gonna fill it but I want it. Let me think about that.........you would need to process somewhere in the range of 500 gallons of mash to fill it with 60% spirit after cuts. My biggest fermenter is 25 gallons, could upgrade to a 50 gallon. That would be 10 batches. Probably would fill it with scotch, so that would be 2-55 lb bags per batch or 20 bags at $70 each is $1400 total + propane plus time = Not gonna happen.

Seems like a waste but taking it apart for staves is probably the way to go.

-Loneswinger

Probably no need to have it anywhere near full as long as you give it a roll fairly often, to prevent the wood drying out...?

(Get a few broken staves from your friend to use in your jars...?)

By the way if you are (really) good at woodwork it might be possible to carefully take the barrel apart, increase the angle on the edge of the staves, and put it together (with the top and bottom cut smaller) into a much skinnier barrel...
Bear in mind that I am NOT good at woodwork and this might not be reasonably possible at all....

[NcHooch]

Alright yall,
I thought I'd ask for some advice here, cuz I'm a little unsure whether to let it ride, or cash out.

Yesterday I loosened the bung and stole a couple shots of the Carolina bourbon I filled my (new) 5L barrel with 3 months ago.
Here's what I had:
Nice medium amber color, not overly reddish.
Smells like vanilla with hints of corn and oak .... Mrs Hooch thought it smelled like maple syrup.
Tastes sweet (strange), I can taste a fruity flavor with a taste of vanilla mixed with oak, you can taste the corn and barley as well.
I tested this at 120 proof with no ice, and it has a nice burn at the finish but, it's very smooth and mellow.

This is unlike any bourbon I've ever tasted
... Part of me wants to bottle now at 60%
the other part of me is wonderin if it'll get even better if I leave it ....

this was a new barrel that I bought back in the summer, filled it with water for a week, then it set around for about 3 more weeks (sealed) , rinsed and then I filled it with bourbon.

NChooch

[Mud Mechanik]

Alright yall,
I thought I'd ask for some advice here, cuz I'm a little unsure whether to let it ride, or cash out.

Yesterday I loosened the bung and stole a couple shots of the Carolina bourbon I filled my (new) 5L barrel with 3 months ago.
Here's what I had:
Nice medium amber color, not overly reddish.
Smells like vanilla with hints of corn and oak .... Mrs Hooch thought it smelled like maple syrup.
Tastes sweet (strange), I can taste a fruity flavor with a taste of vanilla mixed with oak, you can taste the corn and barley as well.
I tested this at 120 proof with no ice, and it has a nice burn at the finish but, it's very smooth and mellow.

This is unlike any bourbon I've ever tasted
... Part of me wants to bottle now at 60%
the other part of me is wonderin if it'll get even better if I leave it ....

this was a new barrel that I bought back in the summer, filled it with water for a week, then it set around for about 3 more weeks (sealed) , rinsed and then I filled it with bourbon.

NChooch

If it were me I would cash out while you like it. A friend of mine left one aging too long hoping it would get better and it ended up tasting like a wet stick. Mud

[blind drunk]

If it were me I would cash out while you like it.

Me too. Sounds yummy

bd

[Bull Rider]

Like the old Kenny Rogers song, "Ya gotta know when to hold, know when to fold em".

Kenny was referring to gambling, but that saying applies here too. You can bottle now and lock in, or gamble and wait.

I do all of my aging in stainless steel corney kegs, it's easy to take out oak, or add oak, and I can repeat the process on the next run. Seems like barrels vary from run to run until the oak flavors had been exhausted. But, I have zero run time with barrels.

Bull.

[NcHooch]

Thanks for the advice yall, I'm gonna make a decision this week after another taste test
I get the impression that it's not going to get all over-oaked for some reason or another ... wish I knew why.

thanks,
NChooch

[Usge]

hooch...if you decide to take it off the oak, put it in a glass jar with a little air/head room in it and just let it continue to age that way (ie., not on oak..just in the jar). It will naturally loose a bit of abv over time without having to water it. Besides, you can always water it later to taste. Dropping naturally in proof that way, it's still got residual heat to it...and it keeps the flavors nice and rich. Watering it to 80 proof really tastes weak to me. (just my opinion YMMV) And truthfully, even couple friends who don't like strong drink...preferred the higher proof for the flavor.

[Caprimulgus]

Having banned christmas in my home years ago, I couldn't trust santa to hear my wishes. So I went ahead and ordered one myself. Same as NcHooch, cause he seems to be the happiest with his

And oh, I found these guys; http://www.canadianoak.com/html/whiskey-barrels.html. The two gallon ones seems like a handy size. Maybe next time......

[Bushman]

How long would you suggest aging whiskey in a 5ltr oak barrel? does anyone know can you age it to long? I know the smaller the barrel the faster it will pick up the oaking but I thought I would like to leave it for at least a year. I need some other opinions.
Thanks

I am also thinking about purchasing several small barrels for aging. After visiting several sites that sell barrels some of them have suggestions to your questions on aging and cleaning and reusing the barrel. Below is one such URL. When you go to the site click on FAQ.
http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.php ... &Itemid=27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Liquid_Luv]

Bushman...

Just my two cents...

To season small barrels, a nice method is to use twice racked clarified wash for a month or two... this adds flavour to the wash that will carry over as subtle overtones if you are using a pot still, which you should IMHO when making Rum...

Do this two or three times on that little 5l and just one or twice on the 10l... for 20l you would do this just once. Once emptied you can use immediately or optionally [Better method] soak for an hour with sterile water to remove trace residuals from the unfermentable solids in the wash, and any unused yeast nutrients, etc...

Cheers!

[NcHooch]

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but i figured I'd throw it out there to chew on.

A full sized barrel holds approx 55 gallons and has a interior area of 3200 sq in. that equals 57 sq in / gallon.

A 5L sized barrel holds approx 1.32 gallons and has a interior area of 350 sq in. that equals 266 sq in / gallon.

So you're talkin about exposing the spirits to 5 times as much oak as commercial whiskey makers do ...'course, who ever said they're doin it right? , know what I mean?

does this mean that you could make a 10yo tasting bourbon in 2 years? Some of the guys say that you can over-oak and ruin your hooch, then others say that the you need to leave it in there for a long time no matter how much oak you have , oak takes time to mellow and mature.

Me, I dunno, the oldest hooch I have is 7 months on oak in a mason jar at about 24 sq in/quart, (or 96 sq in/gallon) and it's pretty darn tasty.

Cheers,
NChooch

[Kentucky shinner]

Hey there NC.. I am not sure either. I have filled a 5 liter barrel and i am going to leave it alone for 1 year if I can then try it.. I can tell you I had some in a 5 liter for 2 months and it will curl your hair...

[Liquid_Luv]

So you're talkin about exposing the spirits to 5 times as much oak as commercial whiskey makers do ...'course, who ever said they're doin it right? , know what I mean?

Not really... what do you mean?
I can tell you one thing about commercial that you may not want to hear... when it comes to aging... They Are Doing it Right!!!

They are masters of aging and blending... most hobbyists are light years behind the pros in the commercial game when it comes to aging and blending... the highly educated noses and taste buds that play in that park are extraordinary and are paid a king’s ransom for being that good...

True, we can make spirits that are less dangerous to our health at home [once we've learned how]... we can even make them tasty [with a little practice]... tastier than commercially made spirits [with even more practice]... but only because we don't need to cover up the bad or the ugly, because we only use the good... they use everything in one way or another!!!

Commercial swill stretches the limits of what is consumable by adding too much of what we hobbyists tend to avoid... the hangover causing heads and rotgut tails, artificial flavors, etc... the commercial game is won or lost based on how much of the alcohol produced, actually gets sold. Taking away bad tastes and adding in good ones makes or breaks a commercial distiller.

Please keep in mind, when you buy a fifth for $20... the distiller produced it for 50 cents, the bottles and labels cost more... the labor, transportation and marketing costs... even worse... now, concidering $15 is excise taxes... how much profit do you think the big boys make on a stinkin bottle that they sold for around three bucks...
do the math, how much does it cost you at home to make a good bottle... be honest...
after using quality ingredients, making proper cuts, etc... my top shelf Rum, cost me $4 per bottle or 8 x the cost of producing what goes into a commercial bottle... Damn straight I can make it better for eight times the cost...
but at 50 cents a bottle, none of us can produce anything decent that tastes anything close to what the commercial boys do for the budget they have to work on... so play fair and stop shitting on commercial just cause you have 8 x their budget to spend by avoiding the tax man...

learn from what they do right... aging like the pros will make your product second to none!

One Last Note: The really high end players don't take the same shortcuts and really do make excellent product, better than most home distillers [many of whom take all kinds of shortcuts], a challenge for even the more experienced ones... only they can sell theirs for hundreds of dollars per bottle

Cheers!

[NcHooch]

LL,
that's all well and good, but ya can't discount the fact that the commercial distilleries are working with huge volumes and repeatability, and as a result, they're forced to work with different equipment, methods, and time-lines.

In short, I was trying to say that I believe there's more than one way to skin a cat
NChooch

[Liquid_Luv]

Hooch, I'm not arguing with you... I have read many of your posts, and enjoyed them... you have my respect.

All I am trying to say is that I see it from both sides [from personal experience] and if we as a group with a collective interest are to make constant progress... we must appreciate what others do really well and learn from their experiences as well as our own.

Commercial guys have their strengths and weaknesses... one of their greatest strengths is the art of aging and blending... this knowledge came from hundreds of years of trial and error, improvements and duplication...

5 x the amount of exposure to oak... if it was better, the pros would be doing it. You have to believe, if the commercial guys could bang out higher quality OLD Aged Premium stock quicker and cheaper... they'd already be doing it. There are so many ways they could do this economically... they wouldn't even be forced to use tiny barrels to increase exposure... it's just more isn't always better... just like steroids, using 5 x as much won't turn you into the hulk 5x faster... in fact, it would likely do irreparable damage.

Cheers!

[Izzy_Britton]

I just read all 10 pages of posts so far. I have a few questions and comments.

for starters i purchased a 2 gallon barrel last winter. filled it late april. drained it july 1st. never sampled it at all during the aging process. watered to 40% and bottled. gave most of it to my friend. he liked it but said it was not as good at the stuff i was aging on oak sticks for almost the same amount of time.

one thing that i did that I should not have done was, I topped the barrel up full after 1 month and then again about the 2 month period.

them damn angels! in doing so i know that this probably contributed more than i want to admit to the less than best taste that my friend pointed out to me.

i refilled the 2 gallon barrel and another 3 gallon barrel the first week of july. I have again topped them up twice since filling but have yet to taste it at all. smells awesome tho i am going to empty the 2 gallon barrel in the coming weeks and bottle. the 3 gallon barrel i will likely let sit and age as long as i can. i have cut down on the sharing of the booze so it will now take many many many months to drink up that 2 gallons allowing for the 3 gallon barrel to age much longer.

the barrels i have leak a little, more than a seep less than a drip. this kind of pissed me off because it tends to seep and leak all over the place in my garage cupboard or on the work bench making a hell of a mess. i know the angels want a bit and the seepage is messy so this time when i filled them in july i put each of them in a sealed 5 gallon bucket. they leak, they seep, and the angles can buzz off! the biggest problem i see with doing this this way in the 5 gallon buckets is that the steel hoops test to rust quite a bit and would need to be replaced much sooner than the barrel.

so my questions are:

has anyone ever stored the barrel of aging booze in a sealed container like a bucket?

does any one ever top off their barrels? is that just an outright wrong practice?

if the angels take at a rate of say even 6 ounces per year, would it be conceivable that eventually you would have an empty barrel due to evaporation and not heavy taste testing?

I am considering once i get my operation up an running again to buy a 15-20 gallon barrel (or bigger)and filling it up and leaving it for a couple/few years in the corner somewhere.

I am interested in hearing anything that you have to say.

[LWTCS]

Good post Izzy.
Fact this has slipped away from me as a priority on the "to do" list cuz I'm growing more taste for the white.

Dunder, Punkin and a few others have talked about using a solara method.
My thoughts would be that a three barrel system would be my preference.

Imagine 3 barrels stacked on a stand one atop the other.
Fill your barrels starting with the bottom first,,,,then,,,as time passes the second gets filled. And finally the top or 3rd barrel gets filled.
By this time one assumes that more than a week has passed

Use your bottom barrel to draw down for drink. Then top the bottom barrel with likker from the middle barrel. Then top the middle barrel with likker from the top barrel. And top the top barrel with your white dog.

Depending on the size of your barrels and your draw down rate,,you could have relatively well cycled aged drinking stock that can be drawn off kinda regularly.

Maybe not a perfect solution but certainly not a bad solution I recon.

It's on my list.

[The Baker]

Hi, Izzy,
I had a very small barrel that seeped quite badly.
So I went to the auto spares place (muffler place would do), and got muffler clamps. The largest size.
They are the kind that have a captive bolt with a screwdriver slot. When you turn the bolt the threads engage in slots on the flat clamp to tighten it.
Actually a form of rack and pinion device.
Anyway you can use the tightening thingy to join two or more of the clamps together, and that is what I did. Used two on each end of the barrel; no problems since.

[The Baker]

Good post Izzy.
Fact this has slipped away from me as a priority on the "to do" list cuz I'm growing more taste for the white.

Dunder, Punkin and a few others have talked about using a solara method.
My thoughts would be that a three barrel system would be my preference.

Imagine 3 barrels stacked on a stand one atop the other.
Fill your barrels starting with the bottom first,,,,then,,,as time passes the second gets filled. And finally the top or 3rd barrel gets filled.
By this time one assumes that more than a week has passed

Use your bottom barrel to draw down for drink. Then top the bottom barrel with likker from the middle barrel. Then top the middle barrel with likker from the top barrel. And top the top barrel with your white dog.

Depending on the size of your barrels and your draw down rate,,you could have relatively well cycled aged drinking stock that can be drawn off kinda regularly.

Maybe not a perfect solution but certainly not a bad solution I recon.

It's on my list.

A few years ago I did something the same with some rough fortified wine.
I used a row of glass bottles, some five- but mostly two-litres. Standing up.
The first filled was set maybe one or two feet below the rest; the last to be filled, maybe one or two feet above the rest.
After the first filled one (which is the one from which product would be drawn) I connected tightly to the bunghole in a little barrel, set maybe a foot below that jar, with a tap.
All the jars had bungs with two holes. Rubber, which would be unsuitable for spirit, so you would need to improvise there.
The last to be filled had a little airlock on it.
Then there was a tube from low in the first jar in the row (the one with the airlock);
(the last to be filled, which would be the highest in the barrel set-up),
to high in the next. And a tube from low in that one to high in the next; and so it went, adding more bottles to the 'filling' end as the supply increased.
It worked fine. You place a glass under the tap on the little barrel, and as your glass fills you see and hear the airlock letting air into the furthest jar and watch the level dropping there.
A Solera. Not dead accurate because of possible currents within the jars, but I think accurate enough because the draw would create a gentle current, for a very short time.
Anyway, a rough solera none-the-less. And a fun thing, too.

BTW The plastic U-tubes would be a no-no for spirit but our excellent coppersmiths could easily make copper ones.
Remember, one long leg for the first, a short leg for the next. Each time.

Cost? Maybe zero, depends on what you have have hanging around.

[Caprimulgus]

I choose the cheapest eBay seller I could find. Same as NcHooch. Because I'm a low budget guy and qurious of what you can get for that kind of money. It arrived promptly in one piece and I got exactly what I asked for. A five liter unvarnished medium toast barrel. Seller was very helpful when answering my emails. The barrel smelled like wood inside, nothing ells. It leaked maybe 5 drops when first filling it. Then I primed it submerged in spring water for 24 hours, rinced a few times and filled it with DWWG. I've had 6 liters going on mikeac's method using a 1 liter bottle for the rotation for 4 weeks now. First week, it was just pink DWWG. Second week pink DWWG with a slight burn. Third week, light amber(ish) colour, no caracter but also no burn...but somethings happening. There's like.....toffee aroma. Today, week 4...amber colour, toffee's still there and also a little more depth. None of the 4 testings have been unpleasant in any way though. I can understand the "maple walnut ice cream" mentioned but I can't sence any vanilla, yet. Time will tell. It was 55% going in and is 54% today. I drain a bottle and pour back last weeks bottle every weekend. And give it a nudge with my tumb in the middle of the week to hear it go *glugg glugg* It's a nice sound Angels have taken 3,5dl's of the 6 liters, so far. But they are welcome to it for watching over it. Cold and dry pantry.

So far, I'm happy. I'll be letting it do it's thing until it tells me it's ready for bottling.

[NcHooch]

Keep us updated Capri

I think I'm going to make a scotch with my 5L barrel next and maybe follow Kentucky Shinner's lead & leave it for a long time.
The Carolina Bourbon that I bottled a couple months ago was 3 months on the barrel and turned out excellent, but I gotta wonder if it could have stayed in there longer.

NChooch

[Tater]

I used bees wax to coat my small barrel (around a gallon).It helped a lot to slow down the angles share . Problem with this was when I filled barrel with water between uses it rusted the bands some.I will move bands and wax under them next time I use barrel. Aged some rye for 5 years in it.Adding as angles sipped .Was around 4th or 5th use of barrel. Had 3 gallons to start with lost about 1/2 over that time.After tempering down from 130 proof to 100 found it was a tad over oaked for my taste .Few of my friends liked and drank most of it . I discovered during the wait I preferred my rye white.

[Caprimulgus]

Keep us updated Capri

To chicken to let it go any further than after the first hint of oakiness, I bottled my first batch last weekend at 6 weeks. I ended up with 5,4 liters. I don't have much knowlege to go by and no one than my self to try it on. But I'm happy with it. I refilled the barrel with new white DDWG immediatly and I'm qurious how this second batch will turn out, now that my barrel is broken in. Next time I have a new barrel later on and when I have more to play around with. I wont be as chicken It's just that the few dropps I have are so precious still

[Midday Moon]

I have a couple 8L and one 4L oak keg I bought from Ian Smiley at home-distilling.com. Made in Portugal, very nice.

My first batch in the 4L I left for a little over three months, and my brewmaster friend with a top-notch taster figured I should have left it quite a bit longer. It was a strong-flavoured berry schnapps at close to 65%. The two 8L are now on their second use, with honey/berry hooch that has been in there for around two years. 60-65%. I have found that the edgy unpleasantness of aging fades if you just leave it alone. The one keg I broke in with ginger wine. After the first year, the ginger was overpowering, and I thought I may have ruined it, but now the nice brandy/berry flavour has burried the ginger.

I think an important part of aging in oak is to start with a spirit that has very strong flavour. A mild flavoured spirit will come out tasting like wood, but if the spirit is too strongly flavoured to drink when it's new, the oak will have a positive effect. Essentially, if it tastes good when it's fresh, then drink it fresh. If you want to age in oak, make it so it makes you gag when it's fresh, then let it age for a long time.

My latest experiment, rye at 55%, seems to be aging much more slowly than the 65% that I have used previously. The ginger wine, at about %15, was hardly coloured or flavoured at all after four months. It effected the flavour of the keg much more than the other way around, and worked good for breaking the keg in.

I bet there is a big difference between different coopers and the different varieties of oak. Some coopers are probably more consistent than others.

[guittarmaster]

Nearby where I live -in the state of Colonel Sherman T. Potter- there are several wineries. One of them makes this sickeningly sweet stuff that makes port seem moderate. I'm sending them an email to see if they sell their old barrels to the public and for how much. Could be interesting as I remember reading somewhere that for some whiskey,(either scotch, irish, bourbon, or something) was aged in barrels that had been used previously for aging port wine. I'm sure they'll only have 55 gal but perhaps filling it with 10 gals and rotating the barrel every week will achieve the same affect.... Any thoughts on this?
(not trying to hi-jack this thread or anything but everyones suggestions on this thread has really got the gears in my head turning. )

GM

[The Baker]

Nearby where I live -in the state of Colonel Sherman T. Potter- there are several wineries. One of them makes this sickeningly sweet stuff that makes port seem moderate.
snip
GM

Sounds like liqueur muscat.
Beautiful!

[Midday Moon]

Guittarmaster, from what I have heard about aging methods, Bourbon has to be aged in fresh new kegs. That explains a big part of its flavour. Lots of those same kegs are then used for Scotch, which prefers to not be in fresh kegs. They say that the early days of Scotch aging involved a lot of port and sherry kegs, because that was a big proportion of what GB was drinking at the time. The kegs were made and filled in France, then emptied in England, so there were lots of empty ones sitting around. A number of single malt scotches today do special editions in sherry or port kegs, and the result can be pretty nice.

The only problem I can think of with hardly filling a big keg is more loss to the angels if there's a big airspace inside, and keeping it all moist enough for cracks not to open between staves. Perhaps you could just keep filling it for however long it takes until it's full - months or a year - then stop it up and forget about it until you retire... oh yeah, musicians don't retire. I've been tempted by used wine barrels myself, but man, they're big!

[still crazy]

Jameson uses port pipes to age.