New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

[Usge]

Interesting thought centimeter. And I'm surely the last person to get involved in a theoretical discussion on the matter as I'm just getting started testing my new build. But I ain't too proud to guess ......it would seem to me that taking vapor off before the dephleg...would make it somewhat more responsive in that you wouldnt' have to wait the min or two for the dephleg to heat up or cool down..to get vapor going through it (or not). But, I'm not really sure how much difference that would make in the end ...given most of the action takes place well below that on the plate(s).

[LWTCS]

That is doable as I see it. But not gonna perform at the same level as a more classic vm with the taller packed column.
Seems to me,,,these bubblers are best at finding the triangulated happy spot between flavor, speed and a respectable amount of purity. The vm branch would mitigate the gains made in the speed department,,,,,unless I'm missing something.

I do however think that a heads take off solution can be engineer'd with that type of branch

[Centimeter]

This 2" project of your has got me thinking that I want to try and convert my 2" VM column to a valved flute using the same reflux condenser and most of the same equipment. That way I could simply cut my 2" column down to size, add some bubble cap plates instead of packing, and throw in a couple sight glasses. I'd basically just have to get the plate internals and the sight glasses and that's it. Other than the apparent fabrication difficulties, are there any other drawbacks to using 2" rather than 4"? Would it function essentially the same? If so, seems like a way cheaper way to go.

As far as the valved flute, I was thinking of something like this

VM Flute.pdf

It's kind of hard to tell what the drawing is but it's essentially a VM column with the outlet above the coiled reflux condenser going to a water air lock. That way you can control reflux with the valve for the most part and if you want to cut the reflux ratio even more you could start adjusting the coolant flow rate and the water air lock would force any uncondensed vapor to the take off arm.

Another way to do this might be to have an additional bubble cap plate above the take off arm but below the reflux condenser. That way when the valve is closed, all vapor is directed to the reflux condenser and when it's open the top bubble cap plate would act as a sort of internal air lock that directs vapor to the take off arm.

[LWTCS]

I'm really curious. This is good for the hobby.

This kind of experiment could fill in a few blanks for some. Especially on the cost savings side of things.

Could you characterize your intended goals with this type of modification to your VM?

[Samohon]

+2 Larry, also curious and great for the hobby...

Centimeter, from what I can gather from your post, I take it that a hybrid based on the flute/VM could be produced and still output a 96% abv neutral.?

The only way I could see to do this from my initial sketches, was to direct the vapour after the bubblers had done their work to a small packed rectification column off set from the vapour path on the flute. This in turn would send any stillage (backins) that remained in the distillate, back to the boiler at the bottom using another vapour lock... I'll try and draw something up to give you a visual on what I mean...

Another door slowly opens...

[Centimeter]

The VM still I want to modify is this one

IMG_0339 (Edit).JPG

Here's a basic diagram of what I'd like to do with it.

VM Flute2.pdf

I'm more of a whiskey guy so I'm not too interested in producing 96% anymore (hence the desire to convert!), however I included an idea for a packed column to be included as well. I'd probably just want to convert it to a two plate flute like I have shown (minus the packed column bit). Hell, you guys say these flutes make as good of vodka as a VM column but faster anyway, so perhaps this is a conversion all VM users would want to explore? Considering most of our VM columns or on the 5' range, we could also just add a bunch of bubble cap plates as opposed to packing?

Anyhow, do you guys think this design would allow for one to control the reflux ratio to such an extent that managing coolant would not be necessary?

I'm also not sure if a 2" flute will function the same as a 4" flute. Perhaps the smaller plate volume in the 2" would be deleterious in some way? If it functions the same, I see no reason to spend 5 times more on 4" copper.

[LWTCS]

The packing seems (to me ) counter intuitive,,,if yer thinking about flavor.

The plates act like staging areas or ladders that allow flavor notes to be carried upward and held in liquid. Then also reintroduced to forthcoming rising vapors...Think infusion.

My feeling is that Usge's build is on the right track with the smaller diameter.

However,,,,again I'm am very curious to see how something like you have proposed would perform.

[Centimeter]

I just included the packing as an idea for people who want to make neutral. As I said, I would exclude that part in my design as I would want flavored. LWTCS, how to you think a bubble cap plate would compare to your humper thumper?

[LWTCS]

Don't lnow where the heck i was at for that Rock. Was the take off at the plate a useful tool for heads collecion?

@ Centimeter
My still is set up to hold larger volumes of liquid. My inlet tube/riser into the first thumper is 2". And the riser into the thumptower section is only 1.5". So sizewise,,,there are definite similarities.
Seems like I'm getting a good bit of pretty agressive mixing at each chamber level even with the larger volumes. I believe this to be helpful in mitigating entrainment issues.
As an aside thought,,,I figgure most of the flute type builds could get into the 95s by not allowing one drop of reflux back into the bulk amount of water within the boiler.

[Mr.Spooky]

I did something similar 2" single bubbler with take off at the plate and also past the dephlag. Works as both a cm and a lm. Memories are short on the net. I'm currently working on a lm attachment for my 4" bubble plate.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=18495
spooky

[LWTCS]

There ya go... Is there another thread? There is no follow up on your run results.
Bear in mind that other fella that did the 12 or so bubble cap build (with no forced reflux as I recall).
Lots of good builds.hard to remember all of em.

[LWTCS]

I'll move back to your thread to discuss your lm take off as I am particularly interested in that subject matter.

[Usge]

Your build looks great RC. Nice work! Love to know how the 2 incher performs.

[olddog]

I have ran Flute Mk2 a couple of times now and fixed all of the wrinkles (leaks) etc, and I decided to try my current fermentation of UJSSM using the plate dissabling system in an attempt to achieve a 65ABV takeoff. I took of foreshots and heads with all plates engaged, restacked the column, and proceeded to take the hearts,I sampled he spirit using a spoon full of water and a few drops of alcohol from the parrot, it was nice and clean as usual with a nice creamy corn taste. I dissabled all of the plates except the bottom plate, and watched the ABV descend to the required 65%, I again tested the spirit with my usual spoon full of water and a few drops of alcohol from the parrot. The taste was crap gone was the clean corney taste, and the taste I was getting was not nice at all. I engaged all of the plates again, and back came the 90%ABV with that nice clean corn taste.
Some may like the ability to dissable plates in the column, and the system does work as designed, but from now on I will be running with all plates firing, for me the taste is better.


OD

[mash rookie]

I have ran Flute Mk2 a couple of times now and fixed all of the wrinkles (leaks) etc, and I decided to try my current fermentation of UJSSM using the plate dissabling system in an attempt to achieve a 65ABV takeoff. I took of foreshots and heads with all plates engaged, restacked the column, and proceeded to take the hearts,I sampled he spirit using a spoon full of water and a few drops of alcohol from the parrot, it was nice and clean as usual with a nice creamy corn taste. I dissabled all of the plates except the bottom plate, and watched the ABV descend to the required 65%, I again tested the spirit with my usual spoon full of water and a few drops of alcohol from the parrot. The taste was crap gone was the clean corney taste, and the taste I was getting was not nice at all. I engaged all of the plates again, and back came the 90%ABV with that nice clean corn taste.
Some may like the ability to dissable plates in the column, and the system does work as designed, but from now on I will be running with all plates firing, for me the taste is better.


OD

Old Dog,

When you leave all plates running can you speed up or slow down take off by increasing boiler heat and or dephlag cooling flow?

If you take off faster wont that lower ABV?

I am following most of the flute threads as I am preparing to build mine.
I can tell that You and KS watch like expecting fathers and are proud PaPa’s when you see a beautiful build.
I am not going to take pictures during my build but will post several when it is done.
She will be shinny and sexy with a fancy dress and adorned with jewelry before she gets her pictures taken

Mash Rookie

[squidd]

OD,

Could'nt help but wonder whether or not the taste would be better, if only the top tray remained enabled ?
Would the column not then behave as a true single tray one ?

squidd

[olddog]

Could'nt help but wonder whether or not the taste would be better, if only the top tray remained enabled ?Would the column not then behave as a true single tray one ?

I will try that on the next run.


OD

[Centimeter]

I wonder too if you need to collect another round of heads (briefly) or perhaps re-equilibrate on just the one plate for a while. I've noticed that when I halt a run and then restart it, for some reason I always need to collect a bit of heads again. I can't really explain it but it seems like if you upset the consistency and stability of the still, it punishes you for a while. The single plate should most definitely produce splendid corn whiskey.

I appreciate the update and I'm really looking forward to hearing more performance reviews. We'll get this licked Old Dog, you'll see!

[Usge]

Just finished my first spirit run using the new 2 incher. 5 Gals of UJSM low-wines and feints at 45%. I think I've got to agree with OD's findings on this. The distillate was harsh and bitter. It started at 85%. I ran off about 9 pints and it dropped from 85% to 80% during that time. None of it was drinkable. So, all this is going back in the pot for tomorrow. Think I'll just run it off with my potstill head so I have something to put in my barrel (need to get that started soon).

Running it was a chore. Never could quite get it dialed right. It seemed if I even had "any" water trickling out of the top of the dephleg...the distillate would just stop. So, I had it where every now and again...it would dump some water out of the top...but that slowed the stream down to about 3 drops per sec. It was taking way longer than even my bok does. So, I tried upping the heat just a bit...so I could try and get some flow to the dephleg and still have some kind of output. Didn't work.

I'm a little disappointed and obviously have more to learn. Not sure how to get the dephleg straightened out. The only way to get a "stream" output of distillate on this was to turn the water to the dephleg "off". If the water was even remotely on, it would cut the stream down a dribble/drops. But, I'm not giving up. Going to add another plate soon, and give it another go. In the meantime..if anybody has any suggestions?

Heres' the data from the run:
500ml fores
3:02 pint 84%
3:30 pint 84%
4:07 pint 84%
4:38 pint 84%
5:10 pint 83%
5:45 pint 83%
6:25 pint 83%
6:52 300ml 82%
7:23 pint 81%
7:43 300ml 80%

Shut down at that point.

[LWTCS]

if anybody has any suggestions?

Needs at least 2 more plates

[Prairiepiss]

Running it was a chore. Never could quite get it dialed right. It seemed if I even had "any" water trickling out of the top of the dephleg...the distillate would just stop. So, I had it where every now and again...it would dump some water out of the top...but that slowed the stream down to about 3 drops per sec. It was taking way longer than even my bok does. So, I tried upping the heat just a bit...so I could try and get some flow to the dephleg and still have some kind of output. Didn't work.

I'm a little disappointed and obviously have more to learn. Not sure how to get the dephleg straightened out. The only way to get a "stream" output of distillate on this was to turn the water to the dephleg "off". If the water was even remotely on, it would cut the stream down a dribble/drops. But, I'm not giving up. Going to add another plate soon, and give it another go. In the meantime..if anybody has any suggestions?

Should you be taking it off fast enough for a stream? The 2" shouldn't run as fast as a 4" should it? But just how much slower should it be?

[Samohon]

+2, needs more plates to make for a more flavoured product...
The controlling of the dephlegmater could maybe need controlling with a needle valve to give more precision on the amount of coolant being going through...?

Good report Usge, wonder how it would perform with a straight wash...

Been busy at home and work, but its back to my build tomorrow...

[Usge]

Should you be taking it off fast enough for a stream? The 2" shouldn't run as fast as a 4" should it? But just how much slower should it be?

From what I'm seeing...no. With the dephleg completely off..it would stream. I figured just breaking the stream (to dribble) would probably be about as good as I could get — at least I know "some" of the distillate was being returned to the plate. But, doing that..required micro adjustments to the water exiting the dephleg...to where ...you'd only see water exit every min or so. Any "flow" through the dephleg...ie.,straight through...would completely stop the distillate flow early in the run, and later in the run...would reduce it to a drop every few seconds or so.

[LWTCS]

Yeah your dephlemater has more knock down power than you need.
Future 2" builders will thank you for taking a bullet for the team

[Usge]

+2, needs more plates to make for a more flavoured product...
The controlling of the dephlegmater could maybe need controlling with a needle valve to give more precision on the amount of coolant being going through...?

Good report Usge, wonder how it would perform with a straight wash...

Been busy at home and work, but its back to my build tomorrow...

I'm currently running water from bottom to top of the dephleg. Should I put the valve on the top..ie controlling "output" so the chamber stays full? I have a "TEE" running off the faucet ...so any backpressure would probably bleed off there. (I think). Then I could keep the dephleg full, and just control how much comes off...which would probably provide finer control over it than just trying to "push" water through it from below? I can get a 1/4" needle like I have on my boka. It has several turns to open full and it's not a full port valve. This is cold water coming straight off the tap. If that doesn't work...may put the output of my liebig in the loop...so I can adjust water temp (indirectly) before it goes in. That would soften the impact of the water flow..and might allow a more constant (or higher) flow rate of water that's easier to maintain/sustain. Guess there's lots of options there.


I'll do a straight wash run next (got a barrel of UJSM working) and post results back here.

In the meantime...I'll be building more valve modules. Maybe I'll make the next one a "double".

[Usge]

Yeah your dephlemater has more knock down power than you need.
Future 2" builders will thank you for taking a bullet for the team

I think my dephleg is about 3.75 inches from plate to plate. (just for reference). I kept it the same "distance" apart...as I figured reducing the diameter by half would make it about right (ie., going from 4" to 2"). Did the same for the distance between the plates (it's about the same (ie., 4"). That's why my j-trap and downcomers look much longer (ie., it's not a direct scale down of the main template). Probably lots of adjustments will need to be made.

[RayDean]

I think taking the warm water off your Liebig is a step in the right direction. It will allow you to flow more through your dephleg with the same percent of partial condensing as reflux. Just might let you maintain a steady outflow of water and a steady rate of alcohol.

[W.S.C.beachman]

Thanks Usage,
Im building a 2" as well....just getting started. I was going to make my dephlag even longer then you did. Now I will make it no longer then 3" maybe even 2". I suppose though that it is better to build it a bit longer and use a needle valve to control precisely how much water goes through. Better to big then to small..
Why though does only one plate make for harsh flavor and 4 plates make good flavor. I was going to just do 2 plates then decided on 3 now Im thinking I better just do 4 plates. Question? I see some of the flutes used by manufactures have 3 plates from bottom up then a long space to a 4th plate. Why have the 3rd and 4th plate separated?

[LWTCS]

My personal feeling is that the single plate is just not enough to get good separation. Really a miniture thumper that is just smearing as a single thumper does.

I think at least 3 plates needed to get a clean product. And with the 3 plates you get that dynamic behavior in the middle plate as high proof liquid drains down and high proof vapor rises.

[Usge]

I wasn't really looking for a lot of separation from one cap...but hoping for maybe somewhat more homogenous and smooth barrel strength runs. It's always possible that my low-wines/feints were just off. I just re-ran that same batch using my potstill head and although it was much better in terms of flavor...it still had this midrange (music term) gak that was bitter. Hard to describe. Could have very well been from stressed yeast....although I don't recall any problems with last barrel. Or it could be it still needs some cleaning out...although that's hard to imagine given I did 3 cleaning runs on it (1 water/alc, 1 water/vin, then water/alc). a But, it still does look rather cruddy up in there....despite the cleaning. Hard to say. But, given OD's results seem to be somewhat similar using one plate...I'm leaning towards the advice/suggestions that I'm not running enough plates.

I "do" know my dephleg needs sorting for sure. To that end, I'd say this....from my experience thus far (which admittedly isn't much), making the dephleg longer isn't going to help the issue. To give you some idea...running cold water to it...even just the water sitting there (not moving) is enough to completely stop the flow (dependent upon how much heat you are applying...I wasn't applying much) and take a few mins before the water would heat up enough for distillate to start to drip again...and then drip for a while until it dribbles, and then finally flow. The other issue you are fighting "flow wise" is that the water is usually traveling uphill to the condenser. At very low flow-rates...it's like to just stop OR flow/drain backwards. So, a certain amount of pressure is needed here as well. To that end..I used 1/4" tube for nipples, and 5/16" hose (which fits perfectly/snugly over 1/4" tube) which allows for at least "some" pressure. Using 3/8 or 1/2 hose here would be counter productive (at least on a 2").

The question then comes...which way to plumb everything? Obviously...putting some sort of needle valve on the output of the dephleg makes sense..in that you can keep the dephleg full, and then very finely control the flow through by gating the output. This would provided the needed sustained pressure in the water lines/dephleg to keep things working smoothly which the output needlevalve would effect...but there is also need for a diverter to "drain" and bleed off any excess pressure as well. Putting the liebig in the loop could make sense here as well given the added capability of being able to somewhat control water temp on input — again would also need a branch for drain/bypass on that side.

I've heard some debate from others about plumbing it the other way...from top down ...based in part on the theory that if you look at it like any other condenser (ie. libeig) that the temp gradient should follow the vapor flow, and therefore the coolest point should be at the very top forming a temp gradient that goes from warmer at the bottom of dephleg...to cooler at the top. ln looking at this option, with cold water going in the top and then draining out the problem arises with slower flow rates; the dephleg would empty which would seemingly reverse the intended results (ie., the top would then be hotter than the bottom, not the other way around). I suspect however, that one could put a needlevalve on the bottom instead of the top in this case...and that it would then have similar effect as to the reversed flow...ie., the dephleg would stay full..and you control the flow and temp by how much you bleed off. The main difference here would appear to be...which way the temp gradient is pointing (coolest water at the top, or bottom). More testing ahead for sure.

Edit: And just a note for those interested...one positive aspect of this was that brew therm worked great. Temps were as expected and its response was fast, smooth. It's also very easy to read, and the 1/2" male pipe threads make it easy to mount.