New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

[Barney Fife]

Usge, when running a plated column and dephleg, we DO need to put a lot more power into the boiler than we would with a pot still. What you're seeing with the dephleg stopping all your vapor is normal, and shows that you need to pour-on the power. Same reason many of us found out quickly that we needed better cooling systems, or larger water reservoirs(when we put more energy into the boiler, it takes more to take it out).

Before you modify your column, trying driving it differently...

[LWTCS]

Hi Usge.
Just to clarify my point of view a bit.... When in this context I say " separation" I mean that to most nearly be interchangable with smearing in this instance.

[Usge]

Usge, when running a plated column and dephleg, we DO need to put a lot more power into the boiler than we would with a pot still. What you're seeing with the dephleg stopping all your vapor is normal, and shows that you need to pour-on the power. Same reason many of us found out quickly that we needed better cooling systems, or larger water reservoirs(when we put more energy into the boiler, it takes more to take it out).

Before you modify your column, trying driving it differently...

Thanks Barney (and LT) for advice. Ya...I wasn't pushing much heat (just didn't know any better). I'll run it harder next time. Still need to decide whether to plumb it the other way or not (ie., top down, instead of bottom up). I've got another barrel of UJSM coming along. When it finishes, I'll run off a pot of it with a gallon of feints using more heat. Can always re-run that if it doesn't work out good.

Usge (learning as I go)

[olddog]

But, given OD's results seem to be somewhat similar using one plate.

At this time I was experimenting with different plates, and I was using the bottom plate of a 4 plate column. The top plate may give a totally different result, the 2 plate Stumpy prototype gave excellent results.


OD

[Manback]

Real?

The top plate give different results?

Isn't it just vapor path - plate - vapor path - dephlegmator, no matter which way you do it?

I'm just talkin shit here but - I don't see how this would be the case? Maybe a very small difference but surely not by much?

[olddog]

Isn't it just vapor path - plate - vapor path - dephlegmator, no matter which way you do it?

I can't give you a concrete answer here, as a bit more experimenting is required. Even with the plate dissabling system, the plates are only drained to make them inactive but still remain in place, and any obstruction will cause some sort of reflux. A comment on ADI regarding running a Holstien still, it was mentioned that a different flavor profiles were obtained by dissabling sets of plates either at the top or bottom of the column. I need to play around a bit more, but you only have chance to do a couple of combinations each run.


OD

[guittarmaster]

Isn't it just vapor path - plate - vapor path - dephlegmator, no matter which way you do it?

I can't give you a concrete answer here, as a bit more experimenting is required. Even with the plate dissabling system, the plates are only drained to make them inactive but still remain in place, and any obstruction will cause some sort of reflux. A comment on ADI regarding running a Holstien still, it was mentioned that a different flavor profiles were obtained by dissabling sets of plates either at the top or bottom of the column. I need to play around a bit more, but you only have chance to do a couple of combinations each run.


OD

This makes sense that the top plate would give better performance. Afterall doesn't the tray disableing return liquid off the plate into the boiler? If that is the case wouldn't the Continueous condensing action of the Delph be mostly wasted by not allowing the higher purity condensate to collect, reevaporate, recondence, etc, etc.


Usage.

I have a 2" Delph with only three .5" pipes instead of five like u have. I find that I can have an extremely small constant stream comming out and pull 90% off my 10 plates. I suspect that you do not have enough water volume in your Delph relative to your cooling input. If u have an extra water pump and a 5gal bucket u could fill the bucket, let it circulate, and as the water circulates it should heat up quickly, then add the cold tap water into the bucket and regulate that water warmer. Or rig your delp up to the sink and use warm water. just my 2 cents.

[Usge]

Thanks to all for all the input/suggestions. It is all appreciated and helpful. Think I'm first going to try to run it properly (with more heat/fire) — I was running in with very little heat. Then go from there. If the dephleg needs warmer water...I'll put it in the loop with the liebig output. We'll see...how things go next run. I'll be adding plates later...when I have more time to get them built.

btw...my dephleg is 1/4" tube...not 1/2" pipe.

[Barney Fife]

I'd keep the water going from bottom to top; it's the right way to do it.

I have my dephleg plumbed in-line with the product condenser, so that the dephleg's water is warm going-in; that may explain why it doesn't "shock" the output, but rather, seems a bit sluggish in response. I have been thinking of ways to make it respond quicker, but in fact, this may be the better way to run the still after all.

[guittarmaster]

Usge,

I did a little math on the delph volumes for comparison. based on an earlier post your delph is 4" long. I calculated you therefor have a total coolant volume of 9.700 in^3 (.67cup). My delph is 8" long and has a slightly more restricted vapor path. My delph volume is 20.416in^3( 1.41cup).

some notes for comparison:
1) after i make an adjustment my delph setting it takes about 1.5 min for the adjustment to take any affect. how quick is yours?
2) for comparison, next time you make a run try to measure the flow rate through your delph and I'll do the same. (which should be friday!). Try to calc the rate for both complete reflux and at say 90% abv take off or whatever.

I think I'll try to make one in July if you get good results!

GM

[Usge]

Usge,

I did a little math on the delph volumes for comparison. based on an earlier post your delph is 4" long. I calculated you therefor have a total coolant volume of 9.700 in^3 (.67cup). My delph is 8" long and has a slightly more restricted vapor path. My delph volume is 20.416in^3( 1.41cup).

some notes for comparison:
1) after i make an adjustment my delph setting it takes about 1.5 min for the adjustment to take any affect. how quick is yours?
2) for comparison, next time you make a run try to measure the flow rate through your delph and I'll do the same. (which should be friday!). Try to calc the rate for both complete reflux and at say 90% abv take off or whatever.

I think I'll try to make one in July if you get good results!

GM

Actually, I had originally intended to make my dephleg 4" long. However, after assembly of it I decided I needed to protrude the tubes more through each end to get a good solder. So, it's actually 3.75" long in calculating internal volume.

1) that sounds about right..maybe less if the water was already heated up (ie. had been sitting there). Running cold water flow to it..would stop the flow much faster. Maybe 15-20 seconds. Getting flow "started" from there...took longer (about a min or 1.5 mins as you said) and was a lot more finicky to set and/or maintain.

2) Be hard to measure the "flow rate" of my dephleg...given it was basically...just burping water out of the top every min or so. It wasn't really a "flow". But, I'll try and measure it next time if I actually get to the point that I can flow anything out of it steadily. But, the info I can give you is that on the first run....I had the dephleg on from the get go and waited for the vapor temp to come up. When it did..I lowered the heat and let it equalize there for 15 mins. After that, I started playing with dephleg trying to get it to flow. I ended up turning the dephleg "off" till I adjusted the heat — just so it would maintain a constant stream/flow of distillate. Output was 85%. From there...I tried to adjust dephleg..and setting it as I mentioned (just burping out water from output) cut the stream in half to a dribble. Output remained 85%. That's from a still charge of 45% mixed low-wines and feints. My temp readings rose to around 180F (sometimes slightly below) and stayed there most of the run...started to rise just before I shut it down. Hope that helps? I've got some UJSM coming online soon. I'll do a wash run....if not this weekend...by next weekend and make some adjustments and report results/findings.

I would also add..that I tossed all this back in the pot and re-ran it with my straight potstill head. For comparison...it came off at 80%.

[squidd]

It may help to aim for a constant target temperature, for the water exiting the dephlegmator.
And that would be 80-83 degrees C, according to Harry.
Probably require a needle valve for precise control.

squidd

[LWTCS]

I agree with Squidd in that tracking a temp is likely easier for the hobby guys rather than engineering a apparatus to track flow rates. 80-83,,,,,,,,81-84,,,,,,,82,,.5,,.7???????

For the guy's that think like potstillers,,,, I'd follow Barney's lead and make all adjustments predicated on the assertion that you want a tooth pic sized stream.

If it ain't pissin like a pot still,,,,,,,may as well run a different still...Make your adjustments accordingly.

[Usge]

If it ain't pissin like a pot still,,,,,,,may as well run a different still...Make your adjustments accordingly.

That there is the quote of the day

[Mr.Spooky]

hees a clever feller aint he?????
spooky

[guittarmaster]

Rigging and aperatous? Naw, i was just gonna time how long it takes to fill up a pint glass or shot glass. That gives me an idea for cooling volume in. Knowing that and the temp difference between in and out can calculate a lot of helpful information like efficiency, thermal exchange rate, etc. Really nerdy stuff, but I like math & thermodynamics!!

[guittarmaster]

Here is the Delph results:

20.something in^3. Filling a pint in 7 min, 15 sec. And at a temp of 58-60 C.

This is the sweet spot that allows me to collect at 90% at the rate of a pint in 17min. This however it may be more relative to my boiler and downcommers as they are too small and will flood in any higher power setting. This summer I'll modify that and increase them to half in from 3/8.

I'll also be posting a video today showing off my twins and the Delph so people can see the stream if it helps, atleast it will give a common reference for discussion.

[squidd]

Guittarmaster,

Would be curious to know how your distillate results would differ (if at all), if you were to reduce the water flow so that the exit water temp increased to 80-83 C.

Thanks,
squidd

[guittarmaster]

Guittarmaster,

Would be curious to know how your distillate results would differ (if at all), if you were to reduce the water flow so that the exit water temp increased to 80-83 C.

Thanks,
squidd

I can't tell u the exact exit-ing temp but after I pulled out my gin bucket and switched into shine mood I cut the volume running through the Delph to almost half and was taking off faster and at 80%. It tasted clean. About 45min later the flow started to slowed down within 5min was just a steady stream of drops. I turned the Delph off, collected the last if the tails, and broke'er down.

Gm

More to come soon, still at work.

<edited for spelling, stupid (un)smart phone>

[guittarmaster]

Link to promised delph video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEYS80wgZlE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Please leave any comments about *my still* that are not related to the sudo-general topic at hand below to limit off topic-ness:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... ilit=+twin

Off to the float trip!!!

[Samohon]

Thanks for the video GM, videos/piccies say a thousand words...

Had some work here at my end to attend to and the mother of all colds, but its back at my flute tomorrow... Yee Hawww

[Usge]

Finished my 2nd bubble (now a double bubble)
It's entirely modular, and I can add or remove the 2nd plate...just have to seal the unions with PFTE tape and/or paste.
The single plate was much easier to build than the bottom j-trap plate. Mostly that was due to having already gained previous experience..but the hardest part here was taking time to make sure it fit properly..given it's modular.

Here's the single plate unit:

SingleBubbleModule.jpg

Here's the single plate "module" (with slip join) next to the bottom plate/j-trap

BothModules.jpg

I had to make sure that when the top module was fully seated into the join that the skirt from the top plate..just touched the plate below. Just took some careful hand filing.

joinedModules.jpg

Here's the whole thing. Just got to vinegar soak the single module to finish up. I have marks on the tubes to know where/how to align when assembling. More to come.

doublebubble.jpg

[Prairiepiss]

Nice work. I like it. So are you done or going to build more sections in the future?

[Usge]

don't know yet. I'm going to do a series of runs on both plates. I've already tried single on low-wines...but perhaps should repeat experiment given I wasn't running enough heat and had trouble with the dephleg. Gonna try running wash as well. Once I'm happy with it in given config...I'll probably solder it up at the joins. If I need to keep it flexible..I'll leave it unsoldered and just tape/paste the joins.

If I decide to go forward and add another plate..I'll probably just make a separate 2-plate module to switch for the single one I have here. Was going to just jump in and bump it to 3 plates...but decided last min this might be a better way to learn/see what's going on.

[DIYhooch]

Any update OD I am dying to hear how your experimentation with the plates goes.

I have been reading these flute threads since the beginning and think it is about time to build one, you guys are awesome.

I just had a question though what sort of pumps (specification and/or brand) are you using to recirculate the water for the dephleg and condenser, apart from my very first still (a reflux column that ran on mains water, a lot of it I might add) I am only used to "worm in a bucket" type setups so I have no idea what sort of pump to get, I will be running it off a 1000L water tank if that makes any difference.

Just one other thing I have been wondering on how you drive these babies, do you take off any foreshots before turning on the dephleg or do you let it sit at total reflux for a while before taking off anything?

Thanks,
DIY

[Usge]

Otay then...here's the results of the first run on the double plate 2" running UJSM wash. It was about what I expected in some ways...and not in others. I've never had good luck trying to reflux wash on my 5 gal rigs. It just seems there's not enough alc to really stabilize anything well through the run. Couldn't get a thumper to work with wash, nor does my boka like it either. I pretty much experienced the same thing with this...although I did get some more experience with the dephleg, etc. I routed output of liebig to input of dephleg and that helped a lot. It certainly made it more responsive and allowed some flow. But, initially at least..it was very hard to get dialed in. If I got the flow down low/hot enough to flow a good stream, it was puffing vapor out the end of the liebig. When I adjusted water flow to the liebig to knock down vapor...it stopped the flow from the distillate. I also ran more heat this time. After equalizing at 172F for 30 mins, the distillate starting coming off at 130 proof. (65%) but rose quickly. I was making constant adjustments trying to get it to hold. After a good bit of fiddling..I adjusted the heat and just a trickle coming out of the depleg...got me stabilized somwehere around 180-182F and the proof started to go up. That didn't last too long before I had to equalize it and start over again. The good news was...that once the water got hot...the dephleg was pretty responsive. But it was all rather hit and miss. Too much water...things slow to a drip. Not enough, and wisps of vapor start to come out the other end. As a result, the temp was constantly going up and down, had to make many adjustments through the run, and re-qualized it twice. Here's the tale of the tape though at each collection point (which doesn't take into account that the temp might have been reading 190F just before a water adjustment):

200ml 77% head temp 182F (went up to 190, had to adjust water flow)
200ml 79% 182F
200ml 79% 182F
200ml 81% 182F (temp rose to 191F, adjust water)
200ml 74% (made note here that I was having trouble controlling temp)
250ml 77% 192F (emptied the parrot and re-equalized for 15mins down to 180F)
100ml 80% 186F (would not flow at 180, temp going to 192F, cannot control temp tails coming)
150ml 67% 204F
100ml 45% 206F (re-equalize one more time, for 15 mins)
200ml 40% (won't hold temp anymore)

That's it for now. I plan on doing a run with low-wines next. Also probably going to add a valve somewhere for the dephleg. It's a bitch trying to control both the heat from liebig..plus the flow to deplheg at same time.

[LWTCS]

Not sure if your smallish boiler can hold enough alcohol to feed your apparatus as you mention Usge....But another plate or 2 should help drop your overall gradient temps....Help your product condenser cope a little better....Know whutta mean?

[Usge]

It's actually a 7.5 gal pot...but holds 5 gal. I've been running 5 gal charges for quite a while (my Colonel's rigs were based on same size). I've never had good luck trying to run wash out of it. There just isn't enough alc to start with to really make it work right. By the time you get through heads...most of the alc is already gone. You get like "peep" of middle/hearts...then it's off to tails. At least..that's been my experience. I get what you are saying about lowering temp gradient. Running low-wines , or at least a higher abv in the still charge, basically does the same thing. The liebig itself is fine. (ie. can knock down anything the stove can throw at it). The issue is having the reflux condenser and liebig tied to the same "flowrate". The dephelg want's less..the liebig needs more. Defintely need a valve/Y here.

As far as my run...the distillate wasn't that bad. Had good flavor...but the heads were all over the place and sharp. I can mostly attribute this to the fact that I think it puked, or flooded, at first...which is why the first distillate was coming off at 130 proof. Was running it hard. Could hear perculating sound from the bubblers...but it would also pop, air and sound like water rising. Then, it never really did quite settle /stabilize after that. When it did...on around 180F, the distillate was very light and flavorful. It did "stream" initially. But, shortly after that...if I allowed it to stream, the vapor temp would rise...distillate would get nasty...and the liebig would start huffing out vapor whisps...requiring a quick adjustment of water..which then brought the temp back down to 180F, but stopped the streaming of distillate...to just drips. When the temp went up, it got very burning/chemical/bitter taste. There was like one jar (200ml) of hearts before the flavor change preceding tails started to bleed over. Tails were were smooth and very flavorful (by comparison) and stayed sweet tasting (not bitter) for quite a while. I mixed the one hearts jar...with the rest down (throwing out heads) and it made a quite flavorful mix for oaking. Too much tails for white dog drinking...but really nice aged on oak I think. So, all was not lost from the experiment ...despite the difficulty in controlling it.

From here, I'm definitely going to put somekind of valve on the dephelg....and continue to run warm/heated water from the liebig. The heated water definitely helped and made reduction changes in the dephleg more responsive — it's always been responsive the other way. Haven't really worked that out in my head yet but I'll figure something out. I also plan on running low-wines..or maybe low-wines/wash mix with more alc in it. I'm trying to avoid feints because they always seem to add bitterness. (at least mine do). So, still more experimenting to go. I'm having a good time though

[guittarmaster]

I was looking at the bubble cap design here and think it looks good. However I was wondering how one might be able to mitigate the challang of soldering the weir downcommer the side of the column from the outside.

i submitt for your thoughts this:

bubblecap-plate-.jpg

this was drawn on the scale of 2" plate.... 1" cap, and .75 downcommer/raiser but easly be used on 4" plate with the other relationships as stated before in the beginning of this thread..... useing hard and soft solder should make the design possible. Then you only have to worry about soldering the plates to the column reducing chances for leaks... possibly. You also could test for leaks before soldering them into place.

The cap 1" cap would be cut 3/4 the way across with the larger section being used as the bubble cap. The smaller section used as the downcommer cup. Certainly fluid wouldn't flow across the plate as good as the weir style. Do you guys think the trade off could be worth it?


thoughts?

[Usge]

gm,
I didn't find soldering the basic weir downcomer all that difficult. You can use the plate to wedge the top against the inside. I clamped the bottom to the inside of the tube with a small vise clamp (you could just use a vice-grip plier. I fluxed it, cut pieces of solder and straightened them out to sit on the seam between the downcomer and wall. I put the whole thing in a vice laying flat, in a way I could easily get to the sides. Heat from the outside....worked very well and was easy. I think OD tilts his slightly so the solder runs down. I found it tended to glob too much at the bottom, etc., on the little 2 incher so I kept mine flat and just let it puddle straight out across the seam.

The J-trap one on the bottom was a little more tricky..but not too bad.