Breeding Rum Yeast (Danstill EDV 493)

[kiwistiller]

hmmm, interesting that you didn't get the same violent ferment I did. Must be the fact I did a starter so had a high pitching rate, and then being kept insulated at 30C.

Did you add nutrients at all? That's the other thing I did, bump up the nitrogen and B vitiman levels, and added citric acid to bring the pH down.

[CaymanRumBaron]

I added some centrum and a couple tablespoons of epsom, thats it. No other nutrients. I have had a 3 day ferment, using 8 tablespoons of breadyeast using the same things. The yeast cost me so much ($38 for yeast + $76 for 2 day shipping/import duty) that I think I am being to tight with it It is pretty much done though with gravity reading lower than yours with only 2 days longer. It wasnt aggressive but was still pretty quick for the conditions. If I had used the same amount of bakers yeast, I know it would be a few more days atleast.

My batch already has a good layer on yeast on the bottom, which I will collect and reuse for next time with some dunder from this batch.

You did also pretty much invert your sugar by boiling it, while I just heated my wash to dissolve the panela blocks.

[CaymanRumBaron]

Kiwi,

Just to back up your statement about the yeast growth, I had nearly 1/2 inch layer of yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter and it was solid also, very compacted, not loose and floaty like breadyeast and my wash was very clean. I had to literally scrap the yeast of the bottom of the fermenter to collect some for my next pitch.

[johnhopper1957]

Old thread I know, I have just been talking to a fella who is a commercial breeder \ supplier of wine yeast. I asked him about his wine yeasts and when I told him I was distilling and he told me to use Danstill 46-EDV or for rums from mollasses or sugar based ferments to use Danstill 493-EDV. He told me to stay away from wine yeast.

I can get the Danstill493-EDV for $34.00 for 500gr but I mentioned DAP and he told me not to use it as it will give an "uncontrolled ferment, creating peaks and troughs" as well as something about ammonia and something else that I missed. He suggested a commercial nutrient for $24.00 a kg which uses 30 g per 100 L which will give a much cleaner finished product (he also said something else about a better quality spirit but I missed what he said.

Question is has anyone had any experience using commercial nutrient? If so is it worth it? I am thinking $24.00 worth would be used to make 3300 ltrs of wash which would last me years so it's cheap enough.

Also 500 gr of yeast is a lot, any ideas where I could get say 200 gr?

I am in Australia.

Thanks in advance.

[LWTCS]

I mentioned DAP and he told me not to use it as it will give an "uncontrolled ferment, creating peaks and troughs" as well as something about ammonia and something else that I missed.

I recon installing the correct amount of any known nutrient is best........ Much of what is posted here on the boards is found,,,,,,,not at the brew shop. And as such,,,, nutrient amounts are not formulated to meet the specific requirements for fermenting as such....I figger the more we tinker the more we learn.....And I'm using a store bought nutrient at present,,,,,,for now.

He suggested a commercial nutrient for $24.00 a kg

A course he did.

Say, I wonder if you could get him to better characterize "uncontrolled ferment, creating peaks and troughs".

[rtalbigr]

Personally,I think the use of commercialy produced yeast nutrients is well worth the costs, which really are only incremental. Consider first what you are fermenting and then go from there. AG's and rum washes have a considerable amount of what the yeast needs already. Doing sugar heads will require the addition of nutrients and if you use some of the tried and true recipies that is a part of the recipe. When needed I use Fermax (yeast nutrients for wines). I always use Go Ferm Protect when I re-hydrate my yeast. It provides all the micro nutrients a yeast needs and also insures minimal loss of yeast when re-hydration is done properly. I also add 40mg zinc tabs to all my ferments.

Since I have gone to this regimine I have noticed my ferments are much more steady. The aerobic phase is not as violent and the transition to anaerobic phase isn't as sudden. Plus my lees are much more compact.

Big R

[johnhopper1957]

Thanks for the replies, he said something about adding something when the yeast are re-hydrated, this fella isn't a home brew shop he does commercial stuff, not sure if I should mention his company name?

Can I ask what the zinc is for? I can't remember ever hearing anyone mention zinc before.

I am thinking I might just order a 500 g bag on monday of the yeast and do a mollasses wash and see how it goes, then get some of the commercial neutrient and see if it makes any difference.

Thanks,

[Dnderhead]

probably adding a yeast food,after re hydration,making a starter..this give the yeast a jump start,,zinc is one of the nutrients that yeast need or should have,most on here dont have a lab so they just experiment until it works or not..

[rtalbigr]

"Zinc is important in the cell cycle (reproduction) and is a co-factor for alcohol dehydrogenase, the enzyme responsible for alcohol production."
Yeast; The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation, by Chris White.

Yeast is most vunerable at the point of re-hydration because it cannot control what passes through the cell walls in the initial micro-seconds. If rehydration is not done properly the result can be the death of up to half the colony. By using sterile water and products like Go Ferm or Go Ferm Protect you not only insure safe re-hydration but also provide critical micro-nutrients the yeast needs. At the very least, yeast should be re-hydrated with sterile water ONLY. If you want to add some sugar or wort to proof the yeast or to make a starter it should be done AFTER the yeast has been re-hydrated with sterile water.

Big R

[LWTCS]

Thats good info BigR

[LWTCS]

Thats good info BigR

[Prairiepiss]

So what would be the best way to sterilize the water? For rehydration of the yeast. My first thought was boil it. But if you boil it wouldn't you deplete needed oxygen? This is the time that they would need the oxygen most right? And if you were to bubble it with air it would longer be sterilized. Unless you have access to medical grade oxygen. Next would be a chemical sterilizer. If not used precisely could kill as many as using regular water? To much just kill them. To little it won't be sterile.

Or am I thinking to hard on this?

[johnhopper1957]

Thanks BigR,

I never knew that, I will get the yeast starter as well, it'll last me a long time. Do you have any more tips for me? I am looking forward to giving this yeast a go

[Kifi]

I just bought 500g of 493 (it only comes in one size).

Here are my notes:

- I made a 130 liter batch, and pitched about 1/4 of the package. 50/50 fancy molasses and brown sugar.
- rehydrated in 38 C tap water (not sterilized first)
- pitched into a 38 C wash (493 likes it warm)
- aerated before pitching with two airstones for about 20 mins
- used about 100g of FermaidK
- used about 25g of Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salts)
- used 5 vitamin B pills
- average daily temp (air) was 28 C, average night was 21 C.
- fermented from 1074 to 1010 in about 10 days. Moved along quite briskly at the start (as you'd expect). Dropped 20 points after a day and a half. Dropped 20 points two days after that.
- the smell of the distillate was amazing. Lots of caramel, chocolate and praline. Definitely an improvement over past batches. Haven't done the spirit run yet, but will keep you posted.

[LWTCS]

So what would be the best way to sterilize the water?

Just distill some a head of time and have it ready for when ya need it I would think.....

Not trying to be a dick or party pooper. But it is worth noting that although I do get some what inconsistent degrees of performance at aerobic into the anaerobic phase and would always prefer a more bullet proof process,,,,,I have never had an issue that would suggest that my rum ferment would not take off just fine..I have never made a starter. I simply sprinkle my yeast atop the wash to hydrate. I don't get wild ferments. they just chug along nice and even and finish in about a week....I rarely concerm myself with with being hyper viligent about sanitation....

Please don't let my comments damper this discussion as the info is good to know. Just hoping that the thought process behind the discussion is well grounded and not too intimidating for the new folks wondering if they may have biten off more than they can chew.

[Prairiepiss]

So far my best ferments have been started just like you said LWTCS pitching dry yeast right on top of it. I've tried rehydrating in tap water. Very slow start. Regular starter with a little wash diluted. Again slow start. Pitch and stir in. Slow start. Pitch on top covering most of the surface with dried yeast has been the best for me.

Side note I have not worked with molasses yet. It's next so that's why I was inquiring.
But sterilized water is one way I had not tried. I figured I mite give it a go and see what happens.

[rtalbigr]

So what would be the best way to sterilize the water? For rehydration of the yeast. My first thought was boil it. But if you boil it wouldn't you deplete needed oxygen? This is the time that they would need the oxygen most right? And if you were to bubble it with air it would longer be sterilized. Unless you have access to medical grade oxygen. Next would be a chemical sterilizer. If not used precisely could kill as many as using regular water? To much just kill them. To little it won't be sterile.

Or am I thinking to hard on this?

Boiling is fine. I just put about 3 cups a tap water in a pyrex cup and stick it in the microwave. Then I will use some to sterilize the cup I'm going to rehydrate in. I've found it's easiest to disolve the Go Ferm Protect in the hot water, then let it cool to the right temp and add the yeast.

Oxygen it not need for rehydration, only in the wort is it necessary. If you're going to make a starter then that needs to be aerated.

When rehydrating you are just bringing the yeast back from a dormant state, that's all. That's why it's important to introduce the hydrated yeast to the wort within 15-20 minutes because after that time frame the yeast will start to die due to lack of "food." That time frame is necessary to insure proper hydration.

For most active dry yeasts it isn't recomended to just "sprinkle on top." As I stated earlier, in the first micro-seconds, the yeast cannot control what enters through their cell walls. When you sprinkle you are usually killing about 50% of your yeast right off the bat. Now I guess you could compensate for that by doubling your pitch but why waste all that. Your goal should be a health yeast colony and along with aeration, nutrients, and food, proper rehydration is a big help.

I also don't consider "starters" necessary with active dry yeast. Generally 5 gm of active dry yeast ( the amount normally needed for a 5 gal feremnt) contains from 125-150 billion, yes billion, yeast cells which is more than enough cells for a good healthy colony and a good ferment. Additionally ya really want your yeast to go through a good lag phase. This allows the yeast to aclimate to the specific wort. If ya really want to do a started use a diluted wort with a SG of no more than 1.040 and a little lower would be better.

Big R

[johnhopper1957]

Big R lots of very good info, I have just learnt a lot of stuff I didn't know. I'll be doing the rehydrate with plain water and then into the wash.

Once again thanks.

[CaymanRumBaron]

Hello Gents,

Been away for a while getting my commercial micro-distillery in order. Its a 6 plate bubble cap 4" column on 26 gallon boiler from KS.

I have just put on a 6.5 gallon batch of brown sugar and molasses wash in order to have something to run through my column as a first run and as a yeast starter for a 40 gallon wash I plan to do very soon, initial gravity around 1.045 with a potential of around 5%. I hydrated two heaping tablespoons (very inaccurate I know, damn I need a gram scale) of some 493 EDV in some diluted wash with some GO-FERM (again a unknown amount) and it started to foam very nicely after about 10 minutes. I added a few grams of FERMAID-K to the wash.

After I pitched the yeast, it did not take off expected even though I had gone through the precautions as stated above as a cold spell set in and I have no temp control other than ambient which is in the low 80's now. I opened the bucket the next morning expecting a krausen or some evidence of a rapid ferment but nothing. I did notice as I had the bucket open that it started to foam up while it was open to the air as the top of wash was quite dark like tea when I opened it but then started to get white with foam. About five minutes after closing it, looking through the translucent bucket I noticed a 2-3 mm of foam. I mention this because the 493 was probably designed for open fermentation in less than sanitary conditions (it is a killer) and looks like it loves oxygen initially.

That said I have fermented about 5 times using the 493 and it really flocculates/reproduces well and always has a thick layer of yeast literally stuck on the bottom. Compared to the EC1118 I recently used for some banana wine, the airlock was non-stop for about 3 days using the same nutrients as compared to the stop go of the 493 but then again it was stifling hot, around 93F in the days, then as opposed to really 83F now. The 1118 did not flocculate as well though and was easily stirred up when siphoning to secondary, maybe because of the heat. I really want to run the 493 on a hot spell just to see if it changes anything in the flavour department.

Damn, I love the smell of a good rum wash.

[CaymanRumBaron]

Kifi, let us know how the spirit run turns out. I plan to only run once if thats how it smells after 1 run.

I think main differences between mine and Kifi's vs Kiwi's ferment is the temp, it loves heat. I just looked at the chart in the PDF that I gave to Kiwi and it shows that its supposed to go from 1.075 to 1.020 in 18 hours. This is in line with Kiwi's results but not ours in the relative cool.

[rtalbigr]

I have searched and searched and can't find a source for 493. I have tried Yeastman at White Labs I do not get any response from them. Can some one please direct me to where I can get some?

Big R

[blind drunk]

Not sure if this will help, but I know that they are a very helpful bunch. I've talked to them in the past about other yeast and bacteria and they were helpful and even sent me some sourdough dry starter samples. I also called them a while back about the rum yeast and they said that the distribution center for that is in the USA. I quickly lost interest because of the cross border issues. Unfortunately, I don't remember who they referred me to down there.

http://www.ethanoltech.com/beverage/ins ... t_493.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[rtalbigr]

Thx BD, I'll give it a look.

Big R