just want to give my opinion

[Chiller]

Admin edit split this off another post as it took it off topic To be quite frank, I think that while the flute design is a very good piece of craftsmanship, one might argue that not quite as much engineering as gone into it per amount of effort. Please don't take this as offense, flute builders. The design is almost certainly the most aesthetically pleasing of any building ever, and that is part of the reason why I among many others embarked upon the journey to make one (at least until the building stage), however the design falls behind when its output is compared to other stills of comparatively simple build difficulty, that is in terms of speed, purity and neutrality. A packed VM, RM (RLM) or ARC still will produce neutral far more consistently with less build AND operating difficulty, while a pot still with the option of a thumper gives results which pintoshine, a qualified whisky taster, notes are superior to any product from a plated column.

As you asked, in 25 words: ' The flute is beautiful, however its neutral product cannot match a packed column, and its flavoured product cannot match a pot, especially considering build difficulty.'

Please don't take this the wrong way anyone - I only mean to create useful discussion around a topic which is somewhat shrouded. In any case, just my 2p.

[sammybear]

Emptyglass - I haven't had time to read through the whole thread thoroughly but I did skim through, just want to give my opinion on this one as it has been the cause of much debate in the past.

To be quite frank, I think that while the flute design is a very good piece of craftsmanship, one might argue that not quite as much engineering as gone into it per amount of effort. Please don't take this as offense, flute builders. The design is almost certainly the most aesthetically pleasing of any building ever, and that is part of the reason why I among many others embarked upon the journey to make one (at least until the building stage), however the design falls behind when its output is compared to other stills of comparatively simple build difficulty, that is in terms of speed, purity and neutrality. A packed VM, RM (RLM) or ARC still will produce neutral far more consistently with less build AND operating difficulty, while a pot still with the option of a thumper gives results which pintoshine, a qualified whisky taster, notes are superior to any product from a plated column.

As you asked, in 25 words: ' The flute is beautiful, however its neutral product cannot match a packed column, and its flavoured product cannot match a pot, especially considering build difficulty.'

Please don't take this the wrong way anyone - I only mean to create useful discussion around a topic which is somewhat shrouded. In any case, just my 2p.

One could argue that this is more of an all in one solution. So a jack of all trades and a master of none. I personally wanted setup where I could easily and quickly get light flavored high proof alcohols, and the option to also get a neutral (even if it takes 2 runs to get - but I'm tweaking my design so it should only take one). The plated still seems to match my desired product outcomes, so I fail to see how it is a lack of engineering.

And as to the argument of a certified taster - taste is subjective, so this is not really a good point. I prefer the taste of everclear 190 to any wine I've ever tried, demonstrating how vastly opinions can vary

[emptyglass]

The are nice to look at, but thats not what I'm after.

One other strong point flutes have going for the is speed.

I'm not after neutral. I'm making whiskey.

I have always been looking for faster ways to make the best product I can. Given I've still got a long way to go in terms of recipies, I think the slight sacrifice in taste flute owners talk about is bearable, if its made up in time.

I can always fire up the pot for some special runs.

I'm sold on the flute idea.

[olddog]

As you asked, in 25 words: ' The flute is beautiful, however its neutral product cannot match a packed column, and its flavoured product cannot match a pot, especially considering build difficulty.'

I beg to differ Chiller, if you research my build history, you will find that I started with a simple potstill. I had not the patience waiting to do stripping runs and spirit runs, so my Frankenstill was born.
This was a potstill with an integrated thumper, other builds followed. Rednose (Joe) was the first person on this forum who built his own plated column for the commercial use in his distillery in Ecuador, this inspired me to develop the Flute build, and I ended up developing the Flute design for home use, using a keg for a boiler.
It was never designed to produce neutral, although some users have done double runs and reckon the product is as good as any reflux still.
The Flute was an adaption of a commercial concept downscale for home, hobby use, to produce a flavored spirit at potstill speed with a single run.
The flavor of the product is subjective to individual taste, but in my opinion, the product from a Flute well exceeds the product from a potstill or potstill and thumper.
There are now hundreds of Flute type stills world wide and you will see them mentioned on most forums, if the product from these types of still was not good, this would not have happened.
The first person to copy this concept was Kentucky Shiner who was surprised with the amount of flavor that is achieved, he has since copyrighted the design for himself and is now running a successful business building and selling the column on his Hillbilly Stills website.


OD

[Chiller]

As much as we'd like to discuss our feelings on the matter there's no use in it unless either opinion can provide evidence of their point of view. What I will say, though, is that you yourself OD are of the opinion that perforated plates produce the same product, or at least a product with very little difference to that of a bubble cap still - this means that a packed column can do exactly the same, because the only thing separating a well built packed column and a well built bubble cap column (with which there are many more mistakes to make) is the stability between HETPs.

People like to say that theory and practice are different, but that's only because they are limited by their own theory.

A packed column as I mentioned will produce far better neutral, but it can also be made to produce the same result in the way of flavoured drinks - the more you add reflux the more time you take off your distilling time, but the more flavour you take from your product - the flute and a packed column with an equivalent amount of HETPs will produce indistinguishably different spirits if run under identical circumstances. What makes a flute's product taste better (which, as people have mentioned is subjective) is the satisfaction of being able to watch your plates bubble away while you drink it. Personally, I don't like to compromise with anything, and if that means using a pot still to produce the very best flavour for a product which has to be aged for a period which is thousands of times greater than the time it takes to distill it anyway, then so be it.

[WalkingWolf]

What makes a flute's product taste better (which, as people have mentioned is subjective) is the satisfaction of being able to watch your plates bubble away while you drink it.

You lack theory

[NcHooch]

Here's the bottom line as far as I've concluded so far (as a flute owner)....

If you want to produce a 90% flavored product in a single run at pot-still speed, then the flute is what you're lookin for.

I don't think you can actually get full flavor when you take off at 90% ....why do you think bourbon laws limit you to 80%?
It's a compromise, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the best thing you can use to produce a 80+%, flavored product in a single run at pot-still speed.

NChooch

[kenfyoozed]

Could someone please tell me where it's written in law that you must run a flute at the highest take off?

I can run full speed to reflux and cut heads. Then run in potstill mode and pull off at barrel strength if needed. Or just run in simple pot still mode.

My theory may be bad but my rum is damn good!

[NcHooch]

Could someone please tell me where it's written in law that you must run a flute at the highest take off?

I can run full speed to reflux and cut heads. Then run in potstill mode and pull off at barrel strength if needed. Or just run in simple pot still mode.

My theory may be bad but my rum is damn good!

lol
I recon I forgot to add that it's very versatile too
NChooch

[LWTCS]

Heh,,,,,at this point,,,,there is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that the flute type designs are the prefered solution to well over 200 (fact) hobby stillers needs and several micro distilleries needs also.

This is especially apparent by the number of participants within the hobby ranks that have indeed run pot stills and columns prior......

Mathematical evidence can prove differences,,,,and similarities in performance....But there are only a single handfull of eggheads within the hobby community that have the skills to offer such a demonstration in math prowess.


But I really don't need mathematical proof that my still produces better likker than my pot still ever did. No more than I need maths to prove that my missus is a better cook than my mother..Most folks gage the degree of quality with their taste buds.

I don't have any sight glasses btw....And if I did,,,it would help me run my still more optimally

What makes a flute's product taste better (which, as people have mentioned is subjective) is the satisfaction of being able to watch your plates bubble away while you drink it.

Just not a really well thought out point of view at all. Have you tried any likker made with one of these stills?

[Chiller]

What you guys have said just reinforces my point - when I said that the flavour is in the satisfaction, I didn't mean just that. Subjective flavour can be reviewed by survey of multiple tasters - and we have done exactly that on this forum, except not formally: flute users are often ready to defend their product even if it appears lesser to unbiased viewers because the effort they put into making the still and the apparent back up of other flute users suggests they should, while people like pintoshine as I mentioned, who have tried both pot still and flute product but not made one themselves note the superiority of pot flavour. It is understandable that one might one to take this point of view because, in order to keep one's sanity, he must view his past expenditures as worth while.

Larry you mentioned 200 hobby stillers 'prefer' the solution - let me put it this way: if for 200 it is the preferred solution, then for everyone else it must not be for whatever reason (that reason does not matter because the question is whether or not the still is worth making in terms of building and product), so unless there are fewer than 400 hobby stillers I might say you have just provided an argument against yourself.

Aside from the people who HAVE made these stills, what of the experienced still designers among us? Now, I do not mean offense here, but old dog did design what we now call the 'flute' from the holstein stills and other manufacturers, and KS who might also be considered experienced does make these stills for a living - this means that old dog can do nothing but support his design because if he did not would be reducing his own credit, and KS cannot either because he would be losing business if he did - not to mention the fact that the very design these stills are taken from is from a manufacturer that makes its money selling stills to micro distilleries. The people I am referring to with 'experienced designers' are people like Harry, designer of the crossflow heat exchanger (which, although taken from a manufactured design, is a design which has a selling point based on its functionality, not appearance) - I don't mean to bring him into this conversation by any means, but I do want to point out that although he was involved in the design of these stills, he definitively said that he would not take it upon himself to build one, because the functionality did not justify the build over a packed column which is comparatively simple.

As a last point - by saying 'I really don't need mathematical proof that my still produced better likker than my pot still ever did', you are showing yourself to be quite arrogant - and 'Just not a really well thought out point of view at all.' - what exactly does that mean? It is quite well 'thought out', in fact it is quite well know that things other than your taste buds affect perception of taste - including the inclination to believe it tastes better.

[Odin]

Chiller,

Do you actually have a flute? Given the energy you put into this thread & trying to make your point you must have had one and it disapointed you, right? Or am I the one who is doing too much amateur psycology here?

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

Kinda resembles a troll from over there >------------>.
You can't tell me you didn't want this kind of reaction from that post you made.

If they like the product they produce for themselves. With a still that you think is less then optimum. That you learned from reading the opinions of a trained taster. And yes they are opinions. All taste is a mater of opinion. And you know what they say about opinions. Anyway who are you to tell them they are producing an inferior product if you have not tasted it blindly. For that mater all pot stills are not exactly the same. Mine would produce a different product then yours or pintoshines. So who's pot still is the best? I'm not gona tell you mine. Because I haven't fully learned how to drive it yet. But after I do then I would. Because I will learn to drive it to produce the product I like the taste of. And perfect the way to achieve it. Because that is my gaol. I'm not in it to produce something for you. I'm in it for me. If others like what I make that's just makes it better.

For the record I am not an expert in any of this. I run a pot still CM combo. I am building a flute a VM a LM and another CM. I'm just saying your not an expert if you do not have firsthand extended experience. Someone else's opinion does not make you an expert. Nor does a hand full of runs with a new still.

[kenfyoozed]

Chiller, I can see your point and it is a logical one. I wished my potstill produced what my bubble cap column does. Would have saved me plenty of money. So does that mean i have to defend my column since I paid more for it? Because in your logic, I have to defend my purchase.

All poking fun aside, I have side by side products from the same wash run on 2 different postills, one was mine the other was my cousins total different designs and run different, and my column. The potstill products were close but different, and the column product was better than the other 2. House full of guest, about 20, did blind taste test and the column won hands down. So whos right? Actually no one. We all drink what we like, thats why the stores are full of different selections. We can talk thoery all day, or taste test all day, or we can fire up the boilers, make us some booze, sit back and enjoy what we each created.

[LWTCS]

There ya go Ken.
All of my components on my rig are set up so that my rig is fully scalable from pot to thumper to multiple,,,,,,,,bubble cap plates......And I continue to run the same recipe time after time again. And switch/utilize/reconfigure my components so that I may as best I can,,,,,,have complete and full understanding how each component will affect my same recipe.

I like dark meat and I like white meat. I like a rib eye and I like a fillet....And I damn sure know enough about meat to pick out the good from the less good. Don't need to be certified taster to have an original thought about what taste good and whats not....... I been buying some expensive store bought (likker) lately with which to gage.........and all I can say is the bubbler works quite well........

Cheers Chiller
Buy ya a drink any time.

[mash rookie]

Opinions are just that. Opinions. Here is mine. If you want to make tasteless everclear build a tall packed column. Buy your little flavorings and have a good time. Bye Bye.

If you want to make quality flavored liquor faster use a flute.

The flute design in form is Art. In function it is a Super charged pot still. A pot still on steroids. No they are more than that. For those that would argue flavor from flute not as good as a pot still double distilled I say this. My first Flute runs with UJSSM had such strong corn flavor I was overwhelmed. Ten times more than any top shelf Bourbon that I have ever tasted.
HOW MUCH FLAVOR DO YOU NEED?

I find it offensive to suggest that there was no engineering, research or theory that went into the design. As an artist and designer with patents and copyrights in my name I respect the obvious effort made by OD and others.

To suggest that a packed column will do the same job as a flute only proves that this guy does not understand flute theory himself. The term HETP’s is just a term coined in to discuss packing as compared to commercial plated machines. It is not the end all or be all of reflux distilling. It sounds cool to say it, kinda like you know what your talking about.

I find it personally offensive to suggest that others will not advance the design even further. I own a flute, I have another working design still based on a different theory and one on the drawing board with parts purchased that will use yet a different theory.


Who the hell is this guy? Show us something other than talk. Bring it baby.



Edited for spelling, three times. because I cant spell when I get mad.

[WalkingWolf]

Who the hell is this guy? Show us something other than talk.

A rather interesting post from Chiller considering his current position on the flute design.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p6898935

[mash rookie]

Who the hell is this guy? Show us something other than talk.

A rather interesting post from Chiller considering his current position on the flute design.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p6898935

That is too funny!! His tune has changed. He has the skills to use the computer drawing tools. The flute he wanted is probably over his skills necessary for building one so....trash them.

Someone here once said, "put heat to copper then talk to me"

My respect for OD is, while other very smart guys were running numbers he was building, improving and striving for perfection.
Go out to the shop and prove it works or does not work. My kinda guy.

KS started a business building them and can’t keep up. My kinda guy.

There are those that do and those that talk about it, and talk about it, and talk about it. Walk the walk.

I think one thing that bothers me most is the cherry picking bastards that want to learn here and take it somewhere else as theirs. It violates the spirit of this site. Give, share and teach. This guy is probably waiting for the next advancements in artisan distilling so he can go elsewhere and make money with it. Naw, he's not that smart.

Okay, I am done ranting now.

[emptyglass]

I just want to make good hooch quick.
I'd love to take my time, but the reality is I don't have it. If I had to take more than 4 hours for a run, it wouldn't happen.

Iv'e got the pot still running pretty good, about 3.5 hours for the run.

I'd like to do it quicker, but I still want to make nice stuff. A plated column/flute seems like it can do it, only one way to know for sure.

I don't know all the theory, I only need to know enough.

[Chiller]

If you had read my earlier post properly you would realise that I had begun planning a flute, but further reading proved that it was not optimal for my purposes, so please do not feel as though you have revealed some dark secret of mine by linking that thread.

'Show us something other than talk. Bring it baby.' What is this - a cliche movie scene? No, i will not respond to your provocation for testosterone fuelled insulting. To add to that, you seem to have used my point, that is you seem to think that you have some kind of proof, when that is exactly what I am saying is lacked on this subject.

Then there's the ever so typical attitude of 'theory doesn't matter, just make it' : I find it quite ridiculous when people take this stance - even if mathematics isn't your thing there its no reason to brush off the while concept of preparation - are you saying I should build anything that comes to my mind regardless of price just because I want to prove myself to people who think making is more important than thinking? Are you in fact saying that engineering as a science its useless and we should all 'follow our instinct, no that is what apes do and is the result of primitive evolutionary traits.

You also suggested that I lacked the building skills and that its the reason for my opinion, I do not wish to turn this into an alpha male contest so I will not respond to that point. What i will respond to is your view of the flute being art, and you using that to justify your argument: you may not have considered this but the still its a means to an end, and while I agree there its art in most things it is important to note that the point of the still is to produce desirable spirits, not forgetting the purpose of this thread which is to say whether or not the flute is worth building and the monetary expense packaged with it - to which my answer is no.

[myles]

Could someone please tell me where it's written in law that you must run a flute at the highest take off?

I can run full speed to reflux and cut heads. Then run in potstill mode and pull off at barrel strength if needed. Or just run in simple pot still mode.

My theory may be bad but my rum is damn good!

I don't run a flute but I think this point is worth re-emphasising. One of the most important features of any of the 'hybrid' designs IMO is this very important ability to tune your product ABV. It is a versatile technique that can be used for a variety of reasons.

[sammybear]

If you had read my earlier post properly you would realise that I had begun planning a flute, but further reading proved that it was not optimal for my purposes, so please do not feel as though you have revealed some dark secret of mine by linking that thread.

'Show us something other than talk. Bring it baby.' What is this - a cliche movie scene? No, i will not respond to your provocation for testosterone fuelled insulting. To add to that, you seem to have used my point, that is you seem to think that you have some kind of proof, when that is exactly what I am saying is lacked on this subject.

Then there's the ever so typical attitude of 'theory doesn't matter, just make it' : I find it quite ridiculous when people take this stance - even if mathematics isn't your thing there its no reason to brush off the while concept of preparation - are you saying I should build anything that comes to my mind regardless of price just because I want to prove myself to people who think making is more important than thinking? Are you in fact saying that engineering as a science its useless and we should all 'follow our instinct, no that is what apes do and is the result of primitive evolutionary traits.

You also suggested that I lacked the building skills and that its the reason for my opinion, I do not wish to turn this into an alpha male contest so I will not respond to that point. What i will respond to is your view of the flute being art, and you using that to justify your argument: you may not have considered this but the still its a means to an end, and while I agree there its art in most things it is important to note that the point of the still is to produce desirable spirits, not forgetting the purpose of this thread which is to say whether or not the flute is worth building and the monetary expense packaged with it - to which my answer is no.

Have YOU tried both products side by side? Just curious, as you are set on saying they are not worth it, so it would seem you should at least have some experience with a product before you discount it. It would seem the OP should consider the advice of people with true experience, instead of a guy who has not tried something, yet still discounts it.

Also, your lack of reply to the people that did blind taste tests with other people seems to indicate a trolling attitude on your part.

[HungoverHog]

You have to love trolls who use the internet to try to raise their self esteem. Just look in the mirror and say "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dog gone it people like me."

The flute has been proven here with real world experience enough so that you trying to start this argument is just juvenile internet tomfoolery.

[Usge]

I think everyone is pretty clear about what their opinions are at this point. As to subject at hand, I think there's enough information/opinions here for people to make up their own mind. If you ask me...time to move on. Just my opinion.

[Tater]

I think everyone is pretty clear about what their opinions are at this point. As to subject at hand, I think there's enough information/opinions here for people to make up their own mind. If you ask me...time to move on. Just my opinion.

Yep looks like this has went about far as it needs to .

[blind drunk]

Good call, couldn't agree more.

[mash rookie]

I think everyone is pretty clear about what their opinions are at this point. As to subject at hand, I think there's enough information/opinions here for people to make up their own mind. If you ask me...time to move on. Just my opinion.

Yep looks like this has went about far as it needs to .

Agreed.