LWTCS's thump tower system

Post by **LWTCS** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:51 pm

Return rates are predicated on whats coming up from below MR

Big R. I like your mellow observation.....

I mostly figger that Im gonna run this or that hundreds of times more and I do like the suprise of every batch being ever so slightly different and yet comfortably familiar.

Post by **MuleKicker** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:49 pm

Ok. Trying to wrap my simple little mind around how this setup may be different from a normal plated collumn. Maybe Im way off, but the large volume in the bottom thumper is the key. It is holding a large amount of higher abv than normal low wines, (over 40%?) So that would be like stripping your wash to say 50%+ and then doing a spirit run with your simple 4 plate collumn, starting with high abv low wines. Im sure im not quite making sense. Its in the brain.... Just hard to spit it all out.

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:28 pm

I do like the suprise of every batch being ever so slightly different and yet comfortably familiar.

Yes, me too. The same, but not quite the same. It is not practically possible to get every run exactly the same every time, and I don't think it is even desirable. The small differences between runs are what makes it interesting and keeps you on your toes. Even small variations open up new possibilities.

For example, my rum making process is pretty established and consistent now. But I just stripped some 5th generation wash that had been left to sit for a month after finishing, which is much longer than I usually leave them (I had to go away). It had a slightly different note to it that I have never got before, fuller and sweeter. So now I might try leaving finished rum ferments to sit longer before running them to see what happens.

•••••

BTW, Larry, continuing on the theme of differences... the thing I really like about your work is that it's always a bit different, always has a touch of original thinking and experimenting in it. Plus a bunch of passion. And you are always prepared to generously share it all with others.

And thanks for introducing me to TAL.

•••••

My house has become my own personal distillery (living alone does have advantages).

Sure does. Nobody bitches at me for filling the place up with stilling shit, or commandeering the stock pot.

Post by **LWTCS** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:31 pm

TAL?

MuleKicker wrote:Ok. Trying to wrap my simple little mind around how this setup may be different from a normal plated collumn. Maybe Im way off, but the large volume in the bottom thumper is the key. It is holding a large amount of higher abv than normal low wines, (over 40%?) So that would be like stripping your wash to say 50%+ and then doing a spirit run with your simple 4 plate collumn, starting with high abv low wines. Im sure im not quite making sense. Its in the brain.... Just hard to spit it all out.

Your getting it Mule.
The big thumper (when using forced reflux) allows for a bigger volume of higher proof likker with which to feed the column with.
So in essence,,,your gonna liberate almost all of your likker from the primary and put it in the system before you collect one single drop.
Then scrub the pants (water) off of it by virtue of keeping and increasing a very high percentage of abv at each level. Since the bubble caps can only offer one distillation per mol of alcohol,,,we will make the alcohol run thru the system many times over. And with each pass thru the system the water will be displaced from the top of the system to the bottom. This cycling will make it easier for the poorly designed single bubble caps to be more efficient with each pass.

Never letting your previously distilled alchohol back to the primary boiler will ensure that as much available alcohol as possible can stay in the system to assist the system by making evaporation easier and easier and easier yet again to achieve. And conversely, never letting water back to the primary to further dilute the boiler charge and make it more difficult to extract and liberate the remaining alcohol from the boiler.

Post by **Bushman** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:45 am

LWTCS wrote:TAL?
Your getting it Mule.
The big thumper (when using forced reflux) allows for a bigger volume of higher proof likker with which to feed the column with.
So in essence,,,your gonna liberate almost all of your likker from the primary and put it in the system before you collect one single drop.
Then scrub the pants (water) off of it by virtue of keeping and increasing a very high percentage of abv at each level. Since the bubble caps can only offer one distillation per mol of alcohol,,,we will make the alcohol run thru the system many times over. And with each pass thru the system the water will be displaced from the top of the system to the bottom. This cycling will make it easier for the poorly designed single bubble caps to be more efficient with each pass.

Never letting your previously distilled alchohol back to the primary boiler will ensure that as much available alcohol as possible can stay in the system to assist the system by making evaporation easier and easier and easier yet again to achieve. And conversely, never letting water back to the primary to further dilute the boiler charge and make it more difficult to extract and liberate the remaining alcohol from the boiler.

It is making more sense to me as well, understanding concepts is important. Thanks for the additional explanation.

Post by **LWTCS** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:39 am

Does any body care to reckon what type of management system this is?

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:07 am

LWTCS wrote:Does any body care to reckon what type of management system this is?

Are you talking about your thump tower? If so I would say cm if you are using the dephlagmater to control your output. Pot still on steroids if not. PM if using heat input to control the output?

Or are you talking about something in Mike's paper. That I haven't gotten to read yet. Work get in the way sometimes.

Post by **NcHooch** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:03 pm

LWTCS wrote:NcHooch,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgOlX3aNJXE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I hear ya man, Thanks.

Yes, en-cee hooch

Are you gonna show us a run on Saturday?

Post by **myles** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:11 pm

LWTCS wrote:Does any body care to reckon what type of management system this is?

A mix of CM and PM (Power Management), after all you reflux at lower power and then turn the heat up. Really versatile combination IMO. It works well with the packed column hybrids too.

banter_king · Post by **banter_king** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:32 pm

The problem i have with people like you LW is that as soon as a build something that i think i am happy with you have to go and put ideas of "parasitic boilers" and "external downcomers". Now i have to go find a stock pot.

In all serious though it is very impressive not only in the product that it produces but in its sheer originality. Doesn't seem like there is really anyone running a similar rig. The videos are great. I don't mind that i have only been a member for a few months and already have wanted to change my rig a few times based on stuff like this. Modding is fun even if it is just reading about it. Keep it up. I will be trying my hand at some rum soon.

Post by **MuleKicker** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:13 pm

LWTCS wrote:TAL?

MuleKicker wrote:Ok. Trying to wrap my simple little mind around how this setup may be different from a normal plated collumn. Maybe Im way off, but the large volume in the bottom thumper is the key. It is holding a large amount of higher abv than normal low wines, (over 40%?) So that would be like stripping your wash to say 50%+ and then doing a spirit run with your simple 4 plate collumn, starting with high abv low wines. Im sure im not quite making sense. Its in the brain.... Just hard to spit it all out.
Your getting it Mule.
The big thumper (when using forced reflux) allows for a bigger volume of higher proof likker with which to feed the column with.
So in essence,,,your gonna liberate almost all of your likker from the primary and put it in the system before you collect one single drop.
Then scrub the pants (water) off of it by virtue of keeping and increasing a very high percentage of abv at each level. Since the bubble caps can only offer one distillation per mol of alcohol,,,we will make the alcohol run thru the system many times over. And with each pass thru the system the water will be displaced from the top of the system to the bottom. This cycling will make it easier for the poorly designed single bubble caps to be more efficient with each pass.

Never letting your previously distilled alchohol back to the primary boiler will ensure that as much available alcohol as possible can stay in the system to assist the system by making evaporation easier and easier and easier yet again to achieve. And conversely, never letting water back to the primary to further dilute the boiler charge and make it more difficult to extract and liberate the remaining alcohol from the boiler.

Right on. So if the total volume in the boiler to start with is less than the total volume of the combined plates/thumpers(or close to it) the concept works great. It works by pulling up alchol, keeping it suspended in the plates, while the "heavier water falls back. I suppose that once this "chain reaction" is started, it would be sustained. Even if the alcohol volume in the boiler was much greater than the holding capacity of the plates/thumpers.
The pure-er the alcohol that you collect, the less flavor you are getting. 95% Alcohol means 5% water/flavor. Not much flavor.

Post by **LWTCS** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:58 pm

banter_king wrote:The problem i have with people like you LW is that as soon as a build something that i think i am happy with you have to go and put ideas of "parasitic boilers" and "external downcomers". Now i have to go find a stock pot.

Sorry dude,,,,But relatively speaking,,,My rig is the oldest of the crop....Been running it for a good long while,,,,, relatively speaking.

Thanks for the kind words.

Post by **mash rookie** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:19 am

The pure-er the alcohol that you collect, the less flavor you are getting. 95% Alcohol means 5% water/flavor. Not much flavor.

Not necessarily true MK. Flutes make 90%+ but carry heavy flavor. LW's rig is more like a large volume bubble cap flute. I doubt he could make vodka with it. It is a flavor machine. Great for rum. I would like to make some whiskey with it. You could make some serious infused flavor stuff by charging the thumpers with flavoring

Post by **LWTCS** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:31 am

Yes,, I knew there would be opinions with regard to too high an abv as there is a bunch of folks that much prefer to land their product as close to barrel strength as possible......But too me,,, the barrel strength directly out of the still taste a little too earthy. For me its just not bright enough.

Plus, Dnder showed me a little trick with fruit juice/nectar that does a handy little job of infusing fruit notes into your product...Great lil trick if the fruit processing is just to much to deal with. Factor that with the fact that the gin guys are infusing flavor into their neutral all the time..,I mean thats gin=infusion!
So I felt confident that I could quiet easily re-install rummyness lost during a high proof run. Now maybe I'm still stripping out critical elements that some folk might prefer to keep in their rums? But I have done a few side by sides with 40 dollar store bought and mine is easily on par. And when I do a real funky rum the 95% does not take out the rummyness at all. Its just not that easy to remove the rum notes as multi-generational rums are tough little bullfrog sumbitches!

And don't forget that there is evidence that the plated stills do concentrate flavor notes at the top of the rig too.

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:40 am

Ah flavor carry over. I have been thinking about this. And this is what I'm thinking? On larry's thump tower and the plated stills. If all you put in the still is a wash with flavors. That's what you will get out. Unlike a pot still where you run it add clean flavor free water to the distillate and run it again. And you do this x amount of times. But with these stills you are feeding heat to the column with what I'm going to call dirty water vapor. Not clean fresh water to act like a filter. And the more contact and or time the alcohol vapors have to mingle with this dirty water the more flavors carry over. We have seen this discussed in the plated column threads. Where deeper liquid levels have more flavor carry over then shallower liquid levels carry over less flavor.

Ok where am I going with this? Add this thinking to Larry's theory on the alcohol stacking in the column. So you have the alcohol stacked in the column but all you are feeding it with is the dirty (flavored) vapor created in the boiler. So it still carries over. Maybe less but its still there because you don't have anything to remove it. So to get the best neutral is either have the shallower liquid levels. Or my thinking a deeper or more capacity thumpers that are charged with clean water. With the clean water you introduce something to filter the flavors out. But the problem is keeping the clean water from falling back to the boiler.

I'm thinking if you were to make 3 or 4 larger thumpers like Larry's. This could maybe work? Since we need them to be larger I don't see a problem in making them wider then taller. To conserve hight. Fill the thumper with water. And run. I'm not sure what this would do with the output ABV? Without using a dephlagmater. Is don't think it would be ass high. But with some forced reflux and some stacking it mite work..

Sory I kinda cut it short. I need to get back to work. So mull this over and let me know how far I'm off.

Post by **LWTCS** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:10 pm

Excellent post PP but,,,,

Prairiepiss wrote:Where deeper liquid levels have more flavor carry over then shallower liquid levels carry over less flavor.

I am not sure this is completely worked out yet......

I think much of the outcome depends on time spent refluxing prior to take off and whats in the boiler charge,,,,,,be that primary and/or parasitic.

Also we may be moving into splitting hair territory. As OD has mentioned that he can not really distinguish between perf and bubble cap and that is further agree'd upon by macstill...

Really good dialog....

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:46 pm

This really has me thinking. And I have an idea growing from it. I need to crunch some numbers and work it up. Then I will bring it to the table.

And I think the only way to get that worked out. Is if someone was to build a plated column that had a way to adjust the plate drains up and down. That way you could try it with a deep pool of liquid and a shallow pool of liquid. But in my opinion. If the tests aren't run on the same still you won't get a good comparison. Just my thought.

Post by **LWTCS** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:40 pm

http://youtu.be/CvovIkLqgV4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:06 pm

My wife is the one who normally forgets ours.

I'm ready to see it run.

No pressure Larry.

Post by **mash rookie** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:27 am

LW,

What is your take off rate? How does it compare to a flute? Once you have let it reflux to establish a high ABV can you take off fast and maintain that ABV? With the discussion about fluid level affecting taste have you considered placing valves in line on your down comers?

MR

Post by **Bushman** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:37 am

Larry I cut and pasted all of your YouTubes into one word document with each series numbered for a quick link reference. I plan to go back and re-study what you have done and think about these designs. Thanks I have made YouTube videos in the past and they really do take some time and thoughtful planning.

Post by **LWTCS** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:47 am

mash rookie wrote:have you considered placing valves in line on your down comers?

MR

The way my rig is currently designed,,,,a single valve at each downcomer would simply swamp/flood the plate. The accumulating fluid level is dictated by the amount of vapor rising and the RR of the dee-flag.

Best I can think of would be an array of drain outlets at every available elevation within each plate level......And even then after testing,,,, the remaining adjustments would be nearly never fooled with again.

Would be a fantastic learning tool though.

Post by **MuleKicker** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:07 am

LWTCS wrote: Would be a fantastic learning tool though.

Isnt that where were at? I know you have made some fantastic likker with this setup (or so you say

) But more importantly, It sounds like this thing has taught ya (and all of us) a shit load about the inner workings/characteristics of this still design.

Post by **LWTCS** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Thermowell install: check
Fill port #1 leak repair: check
Fill port #2 leak repair:check
Leak check: Check

Gonna run it tomorrow...

Any one know what the max limit on time per video submittal to U toob is???

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:11 pm

Standard is 15 min. You can up it by verified account?

Post by **LWTCS** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:27 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOWpm8WwcZ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Post by **AKAAB** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:45 pm

Bubble cap....Larry...BUBBLE CAP! (Saw it coming....)

Post by **blind drunk** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:57 pm

Thermowell install: check
Fill port #1 leak repair: check
Fill port #2 leak repair:check
Leak check: Check

Bubble cap: check

Post by **LWTCS** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:12 pm

http://youtu.be/7N4EvAqYbEw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

banter_king · Post by **banter_king** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:16 pm

i though he missed that part. haha

EDIT LW posted while i was posting

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LWTCS's thump tower system

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