Help with flange?

[PolishedPA]

Good evening everybody, Brief introduction.Im located in the northeastern United States. I started distilling spirits about 9 months ago. I started with a small pressure cooker that went through extensive modifications by the time i was finished with it. I really wish i wouldve started this hobby with something as big as im building now but i never thought id need it, i was, clearly, wrong. I am now working on my third, 25 gallon SS pot. I plan on using the lid that it came with with a flange on the inside of the lid soldered to my column then bolted into the lid with a flour/water paste for my gasket. Im fairly decent in soldering fittings but ive never tried to solder pipe to a flange or any other flat service for that matter. My instincts tell me that it would be just like welding but with something as soft and flowing as molten solder, im sure thats not the case. Ive read over the posts a few times dealing with the Easy flange and i recall someone posting the exact flange that im trying to make, but is the actual soldering the same as a fitting? Any advice? I tried posting a couple pics of what im trying to achieve. The small piece of pipe was just for me to outline to drill out the flat piece. My actual column will be roughly 13" Thank you.

[ozone39]

Can't tell if that is copper to stainless or copper to copper....Besides that, the heat required to solder is all the same, usually around 450F or so for soft solder. (more silver in it the higher the temp needed). It's the flux and joint preparation that makes or breaks the deal...If your doing copper to copper there I would just make sure the joint is clean, fluxed evenly and use lead free soft solder.....You try and weld that thing or silver solder it it's going to look like a peeled banana when your done from the heat...

[PolishedPA]

I appreciate your response, this is the only thing setting me back on this new boiler so im anxious to complete it. It is copper to copper, sorry about that, i should've been more clear. So i prepare the copper just as i would a pipe fitting, with the cleaning to a polish and fluxing? Do i apply the heat directly to the seam that i want soldered?

[Prairiepiss]

Yes you would clean it shiny. Then wipe down with an alcohol cleaner to get any grease/oil off. Apply flux and heat the piece trying to avoid direct heat to the area fluxed. Apply more heat the the thickest part first. Heat it till the solder flows and move around the joint.

If you direct the heat right at the joint you will burn the flux. Then it won't work properly and the solder won't stick to it.

[PolishedPA]

Ok, so since i want to join the end of the pipe to the face of the plate, i should only flux that part and nothing on the outside? Do you think it would benefit me to flare the pipe into a flange for more surface area? Thanks for the advice. Ive used tons of trial and error thus far, but this is a pretty crucial part that i dont want to screw up.

[Prairiepiss]

Put the flux only where you want the solder to be. And yes if you have the ability to flare the pipe out flat. That would create more contact surface for the solder. So it would be stronger.

[PolishedPA]

Flaring the pipe shouldnt be much of a problem. I think i saw a thread on here where someone used a block of wood to hold the pipe and after heating it, pounded the edge flat?

[Prairiepiss]

Yeah it was in one of the easy flange threads. It's not hard to do. Just don't get in a hurry. Hell I flared a 2" out to 4".
Let us know how it goes.

[PolishedPA]

My column is 1 3/4", hopefully i can get about a 1/2" flange out of it. Ill definitely let you know. If i can remember, ill take some pics along the way. Thanks again.

[ozone39]

It would be beneficial to solder that joint in suspension....using a vise, jack stands, fire bricks ect... That concrete floor is a huge heat sink that and it would give you access to the opposite side of the joint to heat from (keeping the flame from directly coming in contact with the flux).... That copper pipe I'm guess is type L and that plate doesn't look very thin either, it's going to take some joules to get that thing up to temp...

[PolishedPA]

Im not totally sure what you mean. Instead of it sitting on the floor, i should place it in my vice so i can heat from the bottom and solder from the top? This was good timing as im almost finished with my wooden jig to flare the pipe

[PolishedPA]

Here's the jig, nothing fancy but it should work.

[Prairiepiss]

Lookin good. Yes he was just saying don't do it on the concrete floor. Sit it up on something that won't wick the heat away from your work.

[PolishedPA]

I never thought making that flange would be that easy. the piece in the pic is just a short one for practice.

[Husker]

Once you aneal, flaring like that is pretty easy. I have not done the wood block form like you did, I free handed it with my vise, but it was pretty easy. I had to aneal a few times, and work in baby steps. I bet with that form, you could do it a lot quicker than I did.

Good stuff.

H.

[PolishedPA]

Here's the 2 pieces. My original plan was to solder the flanged piece on top of the plate. What are your(everybody) thoughts if i ream out the plate a little more and slip it over the pipe and solder it that way? Any benefit either way?

[Husker]

You actually might be better off, to build up the material using solder. The nice thing about the solder, is that it is so soft, that if forms VERY WELL with a tri clamp. I think the copper would like very nice, but it may not mate as well as the solder one. The 2 I have made flaring the copper, I 'filled' both of them using solder, and then ground it close to shape, and the tri clamp when tightened down very hard, it made a very repeatable seal. I do 'key' the flange and the tri clamp, so they get put on the same way each time.

There certainly are more than 1 way to skin a cat. If you do it fully out of copper, then be sure to check back and document how it runs. One thing I can recommend, is that you solder on a union on the top of this flange, soldering the bottom, but leaving the top open. This will allow you to shove any any proper fitting still head, and slathering just a touch of flour paste on it, and get a perfect seal. This works pretty good, IMHO.

H.

[PolishedPA]

Im not totally sure what you mean. Are you saying that i should flare 2 pieces and use the triclamp to hold them together?

[Prairiepiss]

What are you going to connect this flange too.

[Husker]

The way I did it was:

flange 1 end (like you are working on) That end uses a tri-clamp to mount right to an unmolested sanky keg.

The other end of this, solder on one end of a 2" coupler. Leave the other end of that coupler 'open'. That way, you have a 4" to 6" easy to attach flange.

Then when you make a still head, simply leave the bottom of it, being a raw 2" tube. So if you make a column, simply take a 2" tube, and make your column. Leave the bottom of the tube alone. To make a pot still head, take a short peice of 2", go up a bit, then solder on a lyne arm or other items needed to condense.

Then to run, simply take out your column, or pot still head. Mount the flange on your keg. Then slide the bottom end of the column, or pot head, into that flange. Add just a touch of flour paste, and fire up that still. It works like a champ. Also, since the top part of the flange is a female fitting (the open end of a coupler), the liquid running down the still head will not leak out, and only require just a touch of flour putty.

H.

[PolishedPA]

This will be connected to the lid of my boiler, with either 6 small SS bolts or 8 SS rivets. Nothing is set in stone though, im definitely open to all ideas.

[Husker]

This will be connected to the lid of my boiler, with either 6 small SS bolts or 8 SS rivets. Nothing is set in stone though, im definitely open to all ideas.

So the flange end will be 'up' ? In that case, you will want to flange the bottom end of any still head. Means you are doing more flanges, but now the 2nd one should be much quicker to make, lol

H.

[PolishedPA]

The way I did it was:

flange 1 end (like you are working on) That end uses a tri-clamp to mount right to an unmolested sanky keg.

The other end of this, solder on one end of a 2" coupler. Leave the other end of that coupler 'open'. That way, you have a 4" to 6" easy to attach flange.

Then when you make a still head, simply leave the bottom of it, being a raw 2" tube. So if you make a column, simply take a 2" tube, and make your column. Leave the bottom of the tube alone. To make a pot still head, take a short peice of 2", go up a bit, then solder on a lyne arm or other items needed to condense.

Then to run, simply take out your column, or pot still head. Mount the flange on your keg. Then slide the bottom end of the column, or pot head, into that flange. Add just a touch of flour paste, and fire up that still. It works like a champ. Also, since the top part of the flange is a female fitting (the open end of a coupler), the liquid running down the still head will not leak out, and only require just a touch of flour putty.

H.

I understand now, i think. If i do it your way, i can use the same boiler and head set-up for a variety of things, ie reflux, fractioning column etc.. Or are you saying that if i just stick with my potstill, that will give me, kind of, a quick connect to the boiler? Am i close?

[PolishedPA]

This will be connected to the lid of my boiler, with either 6 small SS bolts or 8 SS rivets. Nothing is set in stone though, im definitely open to all ideas.

So the flange end will be 'up' ? In that case, you will want to flange the bottom end of any still head. Means you are doing more flanges, but now the 2nd one should be much quicker to make, lol

H.

If i was with my set-up at the moment, id take a pic to better explain. But i was going to take the flanged pipe and solder on the copper plate. Then slide the plate and pipe into the boiler lid from the inside with a flour/h20 gasket and bolt or rivet it to the lid. I do like the idea of having a flange on both ends for the convenience factor. What do you think?

[Prairiepiss]

I think I wood do it. This will give you many more options down the road. Different still heads. Boiler upgrades. You name it.

[Husker]

Ok, so you are making a flange wit a 'wide' copper sheet base, and perm mounting that to the boiler lid. Gotcha.

What I would do, is either to make the top part be a tri-clamp flange (see easy flange: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?ft=27056), or solder on a 2" union (or whatever size that pipe is.

The benefits to the easy flange are,
1. pretty easy to build.
2. allows multiple heads to be switched back and forth.

Cons of the easy flange:
1. each still head will have to have a flange built into the bottom of it.

Benefits of doing a union. (here is an example but only 1" http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-33 ... 17507.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
1. SUPER easy. Simply solder on the bottom half of the union.
2. Any of your still heads will need nothing added at all to the bottom of them. simple 'open' pipe, possibly with a chamfer run over it a bit to make sure there is no roughness, is ALL that is needed.
3. since the 'up' part of the flange (the open end of the union)

Cons of the union.
1. they cost money (where easy flange is somewhat no cost DIY). However, a 2" coupler should be found for $8 to $10 US.
2. You have to be a bit careful with bottom end of your still head. I have used a 2" hole saw, and drilled partway through a 2x4, so I could slide that on, to protect, so that it would not get dinged up.
3. You do have to use flour paste (but will almost certainly have to do this on the easy flange also).


But this gives you a couple of ideas. I have used 1/2 soldered unions on my flanges for a while. I would not use anything else. They work SO easily, and are very easy to fabricate.

H.

[PolishedPA]

I think im going to mount the flanged section with the plate onto the lid, like before. But like you suggested, i will solder a union on top of it. I like the idea of being able to switch columns very simply. Mixing some paste is nothing and ill have some mixed everytime i run anyway. I appreciate that you broke that down, very easy to understand the benefits and hinderances of both, thank you. Are the any other threads on here for keeping the lid held down?
The last one i made i used the black clips and i just dont like the look of it. It looks like i put a bunch of time into everything else and just half-assed the rest by using the clips. The one i made before that, i welded a washer to the end of a long piece of SS allthread.Then I put a hole in the bottom center of the pot and ran the allthread up through the middle about 3" above the rim of the pot.Then ran a SS nut to the bottom to seal it between the washer and nut of the pot and let it extend about 3 inches above the rim. It was about 20" total length. With a hole in the center of the lid, i just tightened a nut and it squeezed the lid closed and made an excellent seal. It was a pretty nice set up but it was a pain in the ass to clean it.

[PolishedPA]

I just noticed that i left the window open to my shop where i keep my fermenters. The temperature fell to about 59 f. Can i warm up my yeast to normal, 70-75 f and will thex wake up?

[Husker]

it should 'wake' up.

[PolishedPA]

Okay, i hope so. I brought the 3 carboys inside and set them beside a heating vent and covered everything with a blanket. Should be up to temp soon.