uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[troublestylist]

Isn't conflating "inversion" and "conversion" like comparing crawling to running a marathon? Inversion is the most basic process, one that most yeasts can do themselves. Conversion, on the other hand, is a multi-step process REQUIRED to turn starch INTO sugar, and without it, your grain bill will be perennially useless to the yeast. (Which, for the most part, it is here, just along for the ride as flavor)

I don't think you get much conversion at all heating the corn in the backset. At least, I didn't notice any, and I threw in some amylase. If you read the Carolina bourbon thread, you need (as a minimum) lots of heat to break up the starches first, THEN moderate heat to help the alpha enzyme do its thing converting long starches into short starches, then some less heat to let the beta enzyme do its thing converting short starches into long sugars, and then (lastly) low temps to let the AG do its thing converting long sugars into short sugars....which the yeast eat. I was never quite clear on the last step...yeast seem to do fine without AG, but it helps "cut up their food" for them.

Not to mention the enzymes have to be added at the proper times, lest they die of heat exhaustion.

[Odin]

I guess what I meant was: inverting. Everybody talks about inverting sugar. I don't do it. But when I dissolve new sugar in hot backset ... backset is sour & hot. That should help at least invert part of the sugar from C6 to C3 ...

I think the converting process might be helped a bit by the heat. But I am not sure. In my UJSSM's it is like a continuous process going on in the back ground. Even when I take the beer of the lees, the yeast bed & grain just continue to do some fermenting still.

When I tried to calculate a few times what abv I should get from these 3.2 kilo's of sugar and confronted that with the actual higher abv I got, I did some calculations. Presuming corn has like 70% starch and at a 70% effective mash, that would lead to one pound of fermentable sugar for a kilo of corn.

I found out that, related to the original recipe, around 20% to 25% of my available corn starches are somehow turned into fermentable sugars and will be fermented. The only way I could explain how I got 12 to 13% instead of 10%. And that is why I always replace like 20% of my corn.

Odin.

[troublestylist]

You may be correct, but don't forget...your backset has a small % of alcohol in it (probably 1% depending on your ending temp), and the water around the corn is still at batch proof. So you're not starting from scratch.

I ran 6 batches, and didn't let the corn spend much time in the heat, so I didn't measure any conversion. And the corn didn't "look" very distressed.

I even tried amylase, and didn't get any of the noticeable "clearing" that many people state you get, but then, my corn never turned to cream in the first place.

I'm going to try NChooch's recipe, or maybe the rice one, as my first all-grain, after I get caught up. My All-bran is running very slow (???), so I get to take a rest for a week

[troublestylist]

Okay, I just spirit ran my second batch (runs #4-6). I forgot to cut it down to 25-30%, and instead ran it at 40-45%. As could be expected, my cuts came at higher abv. But I also seem to get a narrower hearts portion. Running about 3 gallons, I got about 64 oz heads down to 73%, only 53 oz hearts down to 69% (145 proof total), and then cardboard tails from there on down.

Given the backset, I guess I could expect the tails to come stronger and sooner...but my first batch I got half as much heads (32oz), 60% more hearts (89 oz @ 142 proof), and was able to go down to 57% before I hit tails. (I watered it down with wash from Run #3)

And I ran slower this time, if anything, and not using wash to dilute, I expected it to be cleaner.

Am I just getting picky? Do heads build up as well as tails using backset? Or is that what I get for not watering it down prior?

Am I discarding hearts as heads because they have a hint of bite to them?

I guess this second run actually matches up more with Jesse's 80-70% suggestion. I was shooting more for the middle third 75-55%, but I suppose that only works with a low abv grain bill?

On a related note, I was thinking of keeping heads and tails separate. Using CC to "clean" my heads, I figure I can strip it to neutralish without worry about tails much. Likewise, I figure it's easier to run an all-tails run and not have to worry about heads. It'll also give me a more flavorful output I can mix with the above batch.

It seems that mixing in the heads and tails for the next run would just make the process more difficult.

Thoughts?

[frozenthunderbolt]

The water you dilute with acts as a filter thus giving you more quality spirit. the less you dilute the more crap comes through.

[Ghost]

Started Gen 4 with One gallon hot backset on sunday and the one thing I noted was that this one didnt take off as fast as the others. 24 hrs later and it had just started to kind of bubble and this morning it was going strong but still not at the speed the other ferments have went at. Might should have checked the ph - next go round I will for sure.

I was ready to repitch the yeast - but waited and as I said this morning it was working so I will let it ride out and see what happens.

[troublestylist]

Interesting tidbit...

My first batch has been sitting in a 3L oak barrel for 5 weeks. It's getting slightly oaky...about the color of MGD...but it's still harsh.

Left a fraction of an oz in a shot glass overnight until most of the alcohol had evaporated. Tried it tonight and it was pleasantly oaky/sweet/watery.

So I think it's going in the right direction. I was worried the oak flavor was too woody and not sweet enough, but I can see how cutting it back to 80 proof will help bring that out.

[jakey44]

If using a reflux is it necessary to run your first batch of sour wash twice?

[Odin]

Depends a bit on how high abv you are getting. Some use a detuned boka and still do a strip run first. Others claim a "one go" approach suits best. I now use a detuned CM and make my UJSSM in one go. Whe potstilling, I always tried 1.5. One wash stripped combined with one wash fresh from the fermentor. Combine, distill, make cuts.

Odin.

[Titus-a-fishus]

If running a pot still I now recommend distilling it twice.
Never did before Mr PP made an astute observation, that many run twice to get good flavour.
Tried it and removed more off flavours.
Came up real nice.

Still no identifiable flavour in my UJSSM

TAF

[Kiwikeg]

Hi sorry for making this thread even longer- tomorrow I will be running my 3rd generation UJSSM,
I have run the first 2 generations through the pot still head for my Euro 60 which has a liebieg condenser.
but the corn taste is too much- I like it but its way too strong. I know my cuts are probily not as good as they need to be, as the pot head is new and i have only used it twice before the ujssm runs.
I was wondering whether to keep going with the pot still head and collect up the low wines then dilute for a spirit run or would I have less flavour if I detune my reflux head and try running through that?
My reflux head is packed starting at bottom with copper scrubber, then ceramic rasching rings to almost top of column then another copper scrubber then a stainless steel scrubber at the very top it produces a very nice neutral vodka set up like this. to detune it should I run it with no cooling in tower and leave the packing in place?
or I could run the reflux normally and hope some flavour carrys over?

[Odin]

I would say: give it a try. If double distilling in a pot still gives you too much taste, you have a very different problem than a few other members have. Too much taste? Don't tell Titus-a-fishes, it will make him go mad.

My experience in running UJSSM thru a detuned reflux still is that you get over a nice, clean taste, but you have to be very carefull with cuts. In potstilling it is a sliding scale from heads to hearts to tails. Running it at a much higher abv will make the transitions more like on/off switches somehow.

Odin.

[Kiwikeg]

Thanks for the advice Odin. In the end I just ran it the 3rd gen through the pot still twice, on the 2nd run added in 1st & 2nd gen distillate and enough water to fill the boiler.
It tastes much better this time heads were more defined, got lots of hearts jars with less corn taste and the overpowering corn taste was more confined to the tails.

[Titus-a-fishus]

Too much taste? Don't tell Titus-a-fishes, it will make him go mad.

Odin.

Not "mad"
Green with envy

Well the pH experiments proved that it wasn't pH.
The change to flaked barley ...... showed is wasn't the grain.
Must say though the change to barley gave it a sweet smell and different taste.

Simple recipe: sugar, water, corn, yeast.
What could go wrong?


So
Have tried changing, roasting and whatever else, the grain
Changing the speed of distilling
Less sugar
Different configeration of the pot still.

Latest change will be......
Water.

Have been using water straight out of the tap.
City water is real nice .... but
Now will try filtered water, have a filter on the kitchen tap only.
So am currently airing 40 ltrs of filtered water and will make up an corn/barley UJSSM tomorrow with that.
Who knows it may be as simple as that.

TAF

[Odin]

Good luck TAF! The problem with this recipe is that it sort of glues itself onto you. At least t me it does. I don't get good results on my corn, but do get it on pretty much any other grain. So it is not the method, but the grain, (corn) in my case. Why not let it go? Guess I am stupid. Keep on working with it. Now with cooked sweet corn. I guess ... it will get me to where I want: a real corn smell & taste. I will take some of the wood today, filter and see. And if I am finally there, I will stop this corn fiddling. On to rye, millet, spelt? But UJSSM style for sure.

Odin.

[blind drunk]

Have you tried using cornmeal? How about making wider cuts? Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy ...

[Odin]

Blind Drunk,

I guess my corn is the problem. And I am about to solve it, by adding sweet corn to the equasion. I think cornmeal might help, as long as it is a sweet/indian corn type, right?

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

"Indian corn type"
I like the "bloody red" if you can git it.I thank it had the best flavor .
the white is bland,,black was "earthy"

[Odin]

Dnderhead,

The problem is, in Holland we just have corn that's used to feed animals. Turns out it is pretty tasteless. And we have cooked sweet corn. Or maybe cooked and then frozen. Not much choice in corn unfortunately.

Now I will start looking for the type you describe. Curious if somewhere someone is importing that stuff.

Odin.

[Odin]

Haha, "bloodred corn snake" is what I get. Now who would want to distill that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dcZ0owpr00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

Indian corn is a type of "flint"corn and is used for flour,corn meal, tortillas,snacks.
some is used as decorations.can be eaten as "sweet corn" but rather tough.
sorry for the mix up..its called "bloody butchers" thats the one I found with the best flavor.
(http://www.victoryseeds.com/corn.html

[Wavfact]

I ran a batch this weekedn and noticed it wasn't quite clear, had a yellow tint to the end product. So I tried a spoonful and had a pretty nasty taste to it.. After looking in on my wash I noticed it was darker in color so I'm sure I got something in there that burnt giving it a bad flavor.. Its not drinkable in the least..

Is there any way to salvage this by adding it to the next batch or should I just toss it all as a bad mistake?

[Dnderhead]

"The problem is, in Holland we just have corn that's used to feed animals."
Odin cold you git "mature" sweet corn? maybe leave unused/unsold corn/maze on the stalk until the husk dries
this mite have a better flavor than "field" corn/maze.

[Odin]

I will try, Dnderhead! Thank you for the support.

Odin.

[DGK]

really thinking about trying this recipe.
had great results from rads gerber wash.but dang two weeks and i dont think it was done but i ran it anyways.

so my question is i want to make a 20 gallon batch of this to get some drinkin stock up.

let me know if this sounds right.

20 gallons soft filtered water
28 lbs of sugar
28 lbs cracked corn
4 tablespoons of distillers yeast.

going to run about 2-10 gallon charges through my pro series II high capacity reflux tower.
thanks in advance for any comments or ????

[Odin]

You need more yeast.

[jeepkidd]

Has anyone used "Rolling Acres" brand cracked corn? I can buy it at TSC ($12 for 50lbs) but it doesn't say whether there are preservatives or not.

[Tuckerroach]

Well I started my first UJSSM last tuesday. I used a new fermenter and the lid did not seal right. So, it did not bubble through the air lock. I have checked the mash every 2-3 days and it was always bubbling. Today is day 7 and it is still bubbling just a little. Do you think it is ok to start my stripping run or should I wait until the mash is done bubbling?

[yankeeclear]

Has anyone used "Rolling Acres" brand cracked corn? I can buy it at TSC ($12 for 50lbs) but it doesn't say whether there are preservatives or not.

I have used the CC from TSC in the past and it worked just fine. The 50lb sacks always had a hanging label identifying the contents and it was preservative free. I would verify by checking the label on your sack or if it is missing, phone TSC and have them verify on another sack from that lot.

[Odin]

Tuckerroach,

Corn can keep on fermenting in this recipe. Just give it another day or two to be sure? If you have any SG reading at around 1,00, you'll be fine and you can run it.

Odin.