Mr P's Bubble Bumper experiment.

[Frosteecat]

I think it would be a small matter to ad or subtract controlled and safe amounts of pressure to a still or portion of a still if it somehow aided in the production via purity or efficiency. There are vacuum stills already....
Hypothetically you could "pre charge or deplete" PP's sphere with a bike pump and a simple needle valve somewhat...

[skow69]

Remember if you change the pressure in any part of the still it will change the pressure throughout the entire still.

[LWTCS]

I think it would be a small matter to ad or subtract controlled and safe amounts of pressure to a still or portion of a still if it somehow aided in the production via purity or efficiency. There are vacuum stills already....
Hypothetically you could "pre charge or deplete" PP's sphere with a bike pump and a simple needle valve somewhat...

Not so sure adding air is such a good idea....

[myles]

Remember if you change the pressure in any part of the still it will change the pressure throughout the entire still.

This isn't strictly true. OK the pressures involved are usually small, but there is a pressure gradient from the condenser end of the vapour path (atmospheric pressure) to the boiler end (slight positive pressure).

It depends on your still configuration, but if you look at a multiple thumper scenario as an example:

If you double the depth of the liquid held in the middle thumper, you will increase the pressure of all of the components back towards the boiler. However, you will not change the pressure in the components going from that point forwards towards the condenser. All of those components are controlled by the back pressure that starts at the condenser and works its way back towards the boiler.

The pressures in the thumper configuration (or a plated column) are "stepped", in other still designs it might be a continuous gradient.

[Prairiepiss]

Now that Myles mentioned it. The reflux coming from the packing did change as the ABV dropped. During most of the run when there was a concentrated amount of alcohol in it. It would run down the side walls of the ball. Or wetting it. As the alcohol was depleted it started dripping more. So it wasn't wetting the outer walls of the ball any more. It would just drip from the column to the plate.

And now I wouldn't add air pressure.

[Frosteecat]

Please note I am just riffing and hoping to throw something out that one of you smarter people hadn't thought of. I really don't know if more or less pressure would be desireable (I'm seeing more is not....?) cause I don't know all the science. If you are vented to atmosphere I would think you couldn't theoretically "blow up" your still....I'm just thinking out loud and wondering if a slight controlled increase would help? For all I know you want less (still could be done with a valve but of course you'd lose vapor too). Just tell me to shut up if I'm talking out my ass too much!

[Prairiepiss]

Pressure increases boiling points. Vacuum decreases boiling points. Decreasing could be desirable. That's one of the reasons vacuum stills are used.

[Prairiepiss]

Here is a vid of the plate where you can see the reflux running down the back wall. And very little dripping on the plate.
http://youtu.be/oJCTeyadI7c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Got two more. Will post when I get them uploaded.

[LWTCS]

Talk about your thoughts on that PP.

[myles]

Very interesting to see such a visual indication of what is going on. Might even be worth building a viewport into the base of the column just to keep an eye on how the reflux is behaving.

[Prairiepiss]

Talk about your thoughts on that PP.

I'm still thinking? I'm still analyzing that run in my head. I need some more runs to get a good feel for what's going on. And how to exploit it.


In the mean time here is another one. I think in this one the ABV was lower so not as much ran down the walls. And more dripped on the plate. I think you can also see the solder hole for the Bubblegum cap bottom left. It's bubbling a vapor leak. Again lower ABV it doesn't bubble.
http://youtu.be/0ikChT2xK_M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Frosteecat]

I love being able to see what's going on in there! It would be invaluable to me as my balance, solder, etc. could be WAY off. Allows for some quick and hopefully easy fixes when needed, and discovery of unforseen behaviors.
Compels me to want to have internals easily raised or lowered, in unison or separately, to see what that would effect....

[skow69]

Why did you make the ball so big, PP? Was that to get more area on the surface of the liquid on the plate, or something to do with the vapor space above it? And how did you determine what height to set the plate at? You could have got more area if you raised it up, right? For that matter, why round, not cylindrical?

[myles]

Why did you make the ball so big, PP? Was that to get more area on the surface of the liquid on the plate, or something to do with the vapor space above it? And how did you determine what height to set the plate at? You could have got more area if you raised it up, right? For that matter, why round, not cylindrical?

Probably because it was more difficult to make that way. Nice work.

[Prairiepiss]

Why did you make the ball so big, PP? Was that to get more area on the surface of the liquid on the plate, or something to do with the vapor space above it? And how did you determine what height to set the plate at? You could have got more area if you raised it up, right? For that matter, why round, not cylindrical?

Because an 8" ball is what I had on hand to work with. As far as the rest of it. I placed the plate as low as I could so I still had at last a 2" vapor path to the bubblecaps. And so I would have space for the most liquid I could get on the plate. With the addition of a taller drain riser.

What I wanted was.

One a 2" vapor path all the way through.

Two to have internal drains.

Three to be able to hold the maximum amount of liquid possible.

Four to all fit in the 8" ball I had.

[skow69]

Wow!....... Wow!..... Gee, Mr. P. that's too bad you had to use that damned old 8" ball 'cuz that's the only one you had on hand.
<face palm>
I can't get this thing out of my mind.
Did you calculate the vapor speed, or you know from experience? Or magic? Alchemy?

Whaddaya bet that big assed open ball will act like an expansion valve in an automotive A/C system? When the vapor goes from the relatively higher pressure of the boiler to the slightly lower pressure of Mr. Fu, as Myles noted above, it should expand slightly and absorb (?) extra energy cuz stuff gets cold when it expands. It should happen right when it breaks through that lake of fluid, right at the surface. And the deeper the lake, the more pressure differential, so the more efficient it will be. I'll bet flying dutchman even has a name for it. What do you think FD? Am I in the ballpark?

This is fun, but it makes my head hurt.

[LWTCS]

Wow!....... Wow!..... Gee, Mr. P. that's too bad you had to use that damned old 8" ball 'cuz that's the only one you had on hand.
<face palm>
I can't get this thing out of my mind.
Did you calculate the vapor speed, or you know from experience? Or magic? Alchemy?

Whaddaya bet that big assed open ball will act like an expansion valve in an automotive A/C system? When the vapor goes from the relatively higher pressure of the boiler to the slightly lower pressure of Mr. Fu, as Myles noted above, it should expand slightly and absorb (?) extra energy cuz stuff gets cold when it expands. It should happen right when it breaks through that lake of fluid, right at the surface. And the deeper the lake, the more pressure differential, so the more efficient it will be. I'll bet flying dutchman even has a name for it. What do you think FD? Am I in the ballpark?

This is fun, but it makes my head hurt.

I think your getting it indeed....
As you noted the system has to absorb heat,,,,and also discard heat.....and it is the ABV of the liquid contained that ultimately determines the heat dumped into the column section...
And if you refer to your charts,,,you will recall that,,,within the distilling context,,,,,,heat = ABV

[Prairiepiss]

Yes I thought the expansion chamber would help. I think I asked something along those lines in a thread a while back. But my only figuring was vapor path and liquid depth. I haven't even messed with vapor speed. Yet! All I know is what I can give him now. Is not enough. And all that math makes my head hurt. Hehe.

You all are really picking this thing apart. I just wanted a bubble plate and this is what it turned out to be. And truthfully I wish I had waited. Because I have come up with much better ideas. I really dint start thinking so deep into until after the build was mostly done. But now I'm learning even more from it and finally some good discussions around here. We will have to wait and see what comes of it?

[LWTCS]

You all are really picking this thing apart. I just wanted a bubble plate and this is what it turned out to be. And truthfully I wish I had waited. Because I have come up with much better ideas. I really dint start thinking so deep into until after the build was mostly done. But now I'm learning even more from it and finally some good discussions around here. We will have to wait and see what comes of it?

I know right?
I'm truly grateful for this input as it seems like I have been waiting for a very long time to hash these observations out. And now we are finally able to get enough collective data to help mitigate the sorely needed math,,,,that I can't read......

[Prairiepiss]

This build will make a good test bed. For me at least. I have so many ways I want to run it. I think my best option for testing will be make a good sized batch of All Bran. Run it through collect all of it. Then use it for the test runs. Dilute it to a set ABV and a set amount for each test. Reusing the spirits from each test run. So each configuration can be tested with the same charge.

First things first for me. ABV and speed being what I want to work out first. To het the information I need for the next build.

I have other things I will be testing along the way. Pressures and actual vapor speeds. And temps at different positions. This all just takes time. Something I don't get much of.

My first priority though is to build my drinking stock back up. I looked and its been approx 6 months since I ran my still. I'm pretty much out of everything. So we need to get the shelves stocked back up. But I will collect information from them runs too.

Next run I will be adding a longer drain tube to see what happens. But I still think I will need more power for it to be usefull? I don't think I'm creating enough vapor speed to maintain a higher liquid level.

I will shut up now I'm just babbling.

[jimmyjames1981]

You know i thi k your build has opened a few doors, by using the 8" ball its like having an entire 8" column, even after the ball if its 1" the still will act like an 8"column, i bet you are going to get some tremendous output speeds once you get the correct amount of heat to it, as long as your reflux condensor can keep up. I really enjoy builds like this, way outside the box, its builds like this that continue to evolve us into bigger and better ways in distilling. Im looking forward to seeing what the outcome is once you really put the coals to it.

[lickermaker]

You know i thi k your build has opened a few doors, by using the 8" ball its like having an entire 8" column, even after the ball if its 1" the still will act like an 8"column, i bet you are going to get some tremendous output speeds once you get the correct amount of heat to it, as long as your reflux condensor can keep up. I really enjoy builds like this, way outside the box, its builds like this that continue to evolve us into bigger and better ways in distilling. Im looking forward to seeing what the outcome is once you really put the coals to it.

Yeah way to go PP good build and good info. that's good thinkin outside the box. Now your just thinkin inside the ball.

[Prairiepiss]

Why did you make the ball so big, PP?

cause he's got big balls!

Where you been Rock?

[emptyglass]

Hiding under his rock. Like me.

[emptyglass]

They'd be just about in the rut at the moment, would'nt they?

[Prairiepiss]

They'd be just about in the rut at the moment, would'nt they?

Kinda early for rut ain't it?

I'm suppose to go camping next week. Will be nice to get away.

[emptyglass]

I dunno, kinda off topic, but I'm on the other side of the pond, just curious. I thought it would be getting close.

[bentstick]

Very nice thread PP, is very interesting taking me a bit to wrap my gray matter around it, but I am getting there.
Empty your seasons are opposite to ours we are just comming out of spring going to summer ,your going into fall/ winter?

[HookLine]

Ah man, you couldn't have hit the centre of that drain tube with the reflux stream any better if your life depended on it. Ferkin freaky.

Interesting that the reflux was coming out the centre of the packing.

Nice work.

[Prairiepiss]

It comes from how I pack the column. I use an off bran copper scrubby. They are in the round shape. I just squish them in the column. It makes the one side pop out and the other in. Kinda like a funnel. With the funnel down it channeled most if not all the reflux to the lowest point of the packing. Which was in the center. So I flipped to packing the other way so the funnel shape was pointed up. This channeled the reflux to the outside. As Myles has been talking about. The higher ABV reflux will channel or wet and follow the surfaces better then lower ABV reflux.

I know I only have two time with it now. And I can't really back this up. Yet! But for some reason I think it was more stable with the reflux falling into the drain? Weird! But I will need to do some more testing with that latter on. Test it both ways with the same still charge. That could ne real interesting.


Also I tasted a little of my last run. Even though I was getting 93% 94% it still has a lot of off flavors. Which I kinda expected. Because I did just replace 12" of packing with one plate. But again this is early testing. The wash wasn't a good wash to go by. But its something I will be looking at when I get down to testing. For neutral production anyway.

My next few runs are all going to be flavored drinks. One whiskey run with the Tapioca wash. And 3 rum runs. So I will be looking for a single run at around 80% to 85%ABV with good flavor. I think I will try the drain 1" taller and see what happens. I'm going to remove most of the packing. Leave maybe 2 scrubbys under the reflux condenser. Plus the one I have in the condenser coils. Or maybe not? I'm still up in the air on this one. I guess since I have enough rum wash to do 3 runs I should just run each one a little different. One with packing. One without. One with half. What say you guys?

So much to try. It has my head spinning with ideas. Makes it hard to decide what to try next.