Mr P's Bubble Bumper experiment.

[Frosteecat]

Ok, thanks! I was totally mystified there for a minute!

Do you have to "charge" the sphere or vapor trap first? Or does natural reflux fill it?

[Poitín Paddy]

Great build and discussion. I will be reading and studying this again in the future!

Paddy

[LWTCS]

Prolly gets a bit of passive reflux right off the bat. But the reflux condenser loads it really.

[rumbuff]

Just an idea, but what about using a Boka style take off on this kind of build? I'm thinking of trying to duplicate something like this in the near future, and wanted your collective input. I'm switching my pot to electric, I've got 2 1500 w kettle elements, and one will be on a router control to dial in the power. I figure it'll put out enough to run a smaller version, as per Mr P sayin that he could've used more than 3000 watts. My thinking is that I'd be able to get full reflux for heads/tails compression, but still be able to get the full flavored stuff. Maybe have a window so I could see how much overflow I was getting, a LM reflux control? That way I could eliminate a product condenser.

[LWTCS]

I think that is an excellant solution RB.
Recent data suggests that you should be able to increase your take off speed at an appreciable rate with little to no sacrifice in purity.
Dunno about eliminating tbe product condencer bit?

[emptyglass]

Ok, thanks! I was totally mystified there for a minute!

Do you have to "charge" the sphere or vapor trap first? Or does natural reflux fill it?

Oh Frosty, you got some good nights of tossin' and turning in your sleep. Its going to click real soon. Like a clip on the ear from the teacher.
You'll be sitting on the crapper at work, drawing designs on shit paper.
I predict you are about to make a serious still soon (go on....do it! do it! do it!)
You have checked out Larry's thumper still? Not his fancy pancy new one (that looks real cool). Only man I know that can cut up the house for still's sake and still be married. He has my deepest respect, I don't know how he gets away with it.


I know its just the torch PP ,but the blue hue looks cool.
I have noticed the same settling of the bubbles as the tails come through my still. Could it be tails? I don't make rum, so I cant say.
Either way, I still got a few vids to catch up on. They didn't work for me before.
And I been busy doing my own thing on the other side of the world.

[Frosteecat]

Lol you are right! I've got the sickness big time. I have been "auditioning" random parts for a month now. I am going to my beloved retreat in a week and the only thing I can think of is that it used to be the biggest copper producer in the world. There must be some laying around still, right? Not "don't forget the dry flies and the ammo for the .45" but "where's the metal recycler in Butte". It's bad. Not sure what the wife thinks but since I'm suddenly much handier around the house...I may be safe.
So do you have to charge it or not!?!

[LWTCS]

No you don't,,,,but you can. Self filling will get you the highest ABV unless you precharge with anything over 40-70% or so.

[emptyglass]

What he said.

But that just leads to the next one. This ones easy...

What makes it stay there?

[emptyglass]

"Butte"???

Is this the same "Butte" as in the movie "Cars"?. Love that movie, watched it tonight with the kids.
I got a Santa Fe super chief and El capitan scale train in N scale. I'm fascinated with route 66.

Sorry PP, way, way off topic.

[Prairiepiss]

Just an idea, but what about using a Boka style take off on this kind of build? I'm thinking of trying to duplicate something like this in the near future, and wanted your collective input. I'm switching my pot to electric, I've got 2 1500 w kettle elements, and one will be on a router control to dial in the power. I figure it'll put out enough to run a smaller version, as per Mr P sayin that he could've used more than 3000 watts. My thinking is that I'd be able to get full reflux for heads/tails compression, but still be able to get the full flavored stuff. Maybe have a window so I could see how much overflow I was getting, a LM reflux control? That way I could eliminate a product condenser.

Sory been preoccupied.

As Larry said. Good idea. That was one of the reasons for building mine the way I did. So that we van get more information to prove that this will be an advantage for any still. I think it would boost a boka slant plate pretty damn good. And I think it will take any packed column from two runs to one. And speed it up.

[Poitín Paddy]

Watching this build with great interest and wondering how I could implement this into my 1-1/2 still based on Rad's apartment still. Mostly looking to be able to apply more energy in order to speed up take off rate during a run without dropping ABV. Searched around ebay looking for copper balls with no success. Today, I found this site that offers both half and full copper spheres at what seems to be reasonable prices (unless you really, really need to have Big Balls):

http://www.necopperworks.com/copperballs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Is there any reason why a person wouldn't be able to fill a copper ball with packing (marbles seem like they would be simple) instead of making a bubble plate? Copper packing? I'm pretty sure I could take on manufacturing a bubble plate, but not having any hard solder experience could be a sticking point. Maybe not?

[Prairiepiss]

A ball full of packing ain't give you the same outcome as a bubble plate. And it doesn't really need to be a ball. It could be anything you can adapt. Like LWTCS SS stock pot. I've seen someone talking about two stainless bowls. Anything that will give you a bigger area to hold as much liquid for the vapors to bubble through as you can get. From others reports it doesn't take much to speed up a run. The use of 4" bubble balls is what got me interested. They were showing good results from them.

[rumbuff]

Hey Mr P, have you seen the thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=16053 I'm thinking this combined with your bubble caps would have to be the simplist still ever! I'm thinking of attempting this as opposed to the boka style takeoff I suggested earlier. It would make loading the plates and controlling reflux even easier!

[Prairiepiss]

It would work. Any style still would work on top of it.

[Anthoney]

Hey Mr P, have you seen the thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=16053

Already started a similar combination of bubble ball with vertical condenser controlled vapour management as pioneered by DAD300 on Manu's design. Planning to use SPP to reduce the hight needed and make it easier to manage control of the coil. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=30096 second post from the bottom page one explains the intended design.

[holliday]

I love it. I soon shall start a similar build.

[holliday]

Not sure where you got your copper ball but I was wondering how would say a 4" copper pipe horizontal with a plate and like 6 bubble caps do or would it be better just to make it vertical with a couple of plates?

[Prairiepiss]

I would make it vertical. With a couple of plates.

[lickermaker]

O.k. Here goes. I've discussed with PP that I was extremely impressed with the bubble bumper "Fu man" idea and that I may try a copy, or my version/interpretation of his project. This is what I have so far. A two inch easy flange to a two and half inch length of two inch pipe. soldered to the bottom of my six inch ball. A four inch plate that I made from split and flattened 3/4. five bubble caps made from half inch risers and 3/4 caps. Topped by three inch column with two more plates.

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[Prairiepiss]

Nice work. Keep them pics coming.

[lickermaker]

"Quote Mr. P." The other thing I would do a little different. If I was to do it again. I would make the upcomers taller along with the Bubble caps. So it could hold a little more liquid at low power.
How tal are your one inch upcomers? and if I use half inch pipe and three-quarter caps I can fit five up-comers and a three quarter drain, Any suggestions or calculations how tall to make them and the drain weir?

[Prairiepiss]

Depends on what you want to make? My upcomers are 1" tall. If I was to do it again. And I will one of these days. I will make them 2" tall. And the bubble cap down to the same height off the plate they are now. And the downcomer I have is great. Seeing I can add pipe to make it taller. So I would stick with the slip fit fitting on top of the plate. It works nicely.

And the deeper the bed the more neutral I'm producing. And higher abv. The shallower the liquid bed. The more flavors carry over. And lower the ABV. So deep liquid bed for vodka/neutral and shallow bed for flavored spirits.

[emptyglass]

And the deeper the bed the more neutral I'm producing. And higher abv. The shallower the liquid bed. The more flavors carry over. And lower the ABV. So deep liquid bed for vodka/neutral and shallow bed for flavored spirits.

Thats some pretty good info mate.

[Saltbush Bill]

The shallower the liquid bed. The more flavors carry over. And lower the ABV.

G'day Mr P a question for you . Do deeper or shallower liquid beds have much effect on the way that a plated column ( in my case a perforated plate) separates the different fractions, In other words, with a shallower liquid bed do they still do as good job of compressing the fores, heads and tails?
SBB

[Prairiepiss]

You will still have heads and tails compression. It's a reflux still. How well the fractions are separated in comparison. Would be the question. Many think that with flavor you get smearing. So if you are getting more flavor its not separating the fractions good. But this is what gives you the flavors you want in whiskeys and rums. If you completely separate them then you just have a neutral.

So let's put it like this. A perforated plated still or any plated still. Always has the potential to separate the fractions better then a pot still. No mater how deep the liquid beds. A deeper liquid bed always has the potential to separate the fractions better then a shallow liquid bed.

Potential is the key word. You can drive any of them to get the same results. So they need to be driven correctly to get the desired outcome. If you drive a deep liquid bed to fast you will get the same outcomes of a shallow liquid bed. Likewise if you drive a plated still to fast with little or no reflux. The outcomes will be close to that of a pot still.

There are many things to consider that will change the outcome.
How much heat is used.
How much cooling for reflux is used.
How fast you take off product.
How much product is available to take off.
What the ferment was made of.
You could get even more technical.
What the ambient temps are when you run it.
What temps the distillate is coming off at.

You get the picture. I guess my other post should have stated potential.
And all stills are different. So they need to be ran as such. Experimenting to find what works and how with the particular still you are using. Is the only way to figure it out.

[Saltbush Bill]

Thanks for the answer PP, I already have a 4 x perforated plate column I use for Rums and UJ.....more than happy with how it works. I been thinking for some time of building a perf plate column with a deep liquid bed as a dedicated neutral still. The plan is 4 x perf plates running a deep liquid bed, with a packed section on top of that, I still have a lot of decisions to make about how I will condense / draw off the resulting vapors.

[LWTCS]

To further add to PP's response,
The first responsibility of the liquid on the plate is to condense incoming vapor. Therefore the liquid is a condenser,,,,,,a heat exchanger.
And the deeper the liquid bed is, the more capacitance the liquid bed has to absorb what will become unneeded heat. And by that I mean that the heat needed to render ethanol from a 10% boiler charge is not at all the same heat needed to render ethanol from a 40% charge on your first plate. You will have spare heat that has to be delt with some how for more optimal separation. So the deeper liquid bath can absorb more heat than the shallow bath.......Think big worm bucket vs small worm bucket.

Mike Nixon has explained that we only want to apply just enough heat to evaporate ethanol for optimal purity. The problem is that by only applying just enough heat,,,,,,One's "honey do" list will take that much longer to complete. We are impatient by nature and want optimal separation more quickly if we can..........I do any way.

By using a deeper liquid bed that happens to consist of alcohol, you get a better self regulating heat exchanger. As it it the abv on the plate that determines the vapor temps that pass to the next stage and the unneeded heat is better managed and automatically managed by the deeper liquid.

Lower vapor temps = Higher abv

I am not at all implying that this strategy is the be all to end all when it comes to very precise separation. The flavor notes can and do get trapped on the plates to the point where flavors can in fact become concentrated,,,,,,,both good and bad. And if you throw too much heat at your boiler just to see how hard you can run you will note that it is entirely possible to drag tails up into 90%+ likker.

I'll stop mumbling now.

[Andy Capp]

Didn't hear any mumbling Larry. Quite happy to listen to you and Mr Piss talking shop all day.

[Saltbush Bill]

Thank you for the easy to understand explanation LWTCS, Several points there that I had never considered before.
If i understand what you have said correctly, this would be one of the reasons that plated columns are never insulated. They need to be able to transfer heat away at the different plate levels to work effectively??