DME with additional grains

[Crawgator]

Howdy all,

I am looking for input and suggestions on a few runs I would like to try.

I have Amber and a extra light DME (5lbs of each). I've read folks using anywhere from 1-2lbs per gallon of water. I was thinking of doing 1lb per gallon and adding sugar to boost the alcohol %. How much sugar should I add per gallon of water? I think 1lb would be plenty but not certain.

I would also like to try a run with DME supplemented by grains. I was thinking 1lb DME per gallon of water at to that add flaked corn, wheat and rye at 1/2 lb per gallon ration of 50/40/10%.
My thoughts were to heat 10 gallons of water add DME, boil till hot break is accomplished, reduce temp to 168, add 2 TBS of 5.2 stabilizer, add the corn wheat and barley and cover and let sit till it cools (usually overnight). Dump in my fermenter and get my starting gravity. Add yeast and let it go.

Thoughts? My intent by using the DME in mash with grain is to boost alcohol (instead of using sugar) and give a depth to the taste. My attempt with DME/sugar is to see how much difference in flavor between the 2 different ways. To see if the grain adds a significant taste difference over just DME. If it doesnt then I could save quite a bit of time just using DME instead of mashing grains.

[Dnderhead]

so this is something of a sugar head but with DME instead of sugar?
each lb of L DME per gal.will add 1.044 OG,,1.011 FG,,,4.4% alcohol.
the grain wont add anything to the alcohol unless mashed.
your mileage mite very..
sugar adds 7 1/2 % per lb per gal.

so,,,, 1 lb DME and 1 Lb of sugar =11.9%
now if using all DME with grain,,,2 lb of DME per gal=8.8%

[Crawgator]

Actually its a sugarhead with DME AND sugar. Sugar is cheaper than DMW so my thought was get flavor from the DME and boost alcohol by adding some sugar.

For the DME and grain, I would mash the grain so I should get some sugar from that as well.

Thanks for the numbers though. I had seen the sugar number before but not the DME.

Do you know where I can find the amount of sugar per grain assuming a 100% extraction efficiency? I've searched with no luck.

[Dnderhead]

beer calculator..many out there.
http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Crawgator]

beer calculator..many out there.
http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Thanks, I was searching for the phrase instead of beer calculator.

[Prairiepiss]

You didn't mention any malt or enzymes for the grain? What did you plan to use to convert the starches to sugars?

[Crawgator]

You didn't mention any malt or enzymes for the grain? What did you plan to use to convert the starches to sugars?

When you mash grains various enzymes are produced. Here is a cool chart I found showing temps and stages in mashing of grains where enzymes are produced.

http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f79.gif

[Prairiepiss]

You have to provide the enzymes. They are produced in the malting process. Not during mashing.

That chart shows the temps this enzymes work best at. Not when they are produced.

[Dnderhead]

wrong,,,,thats the temp chart at witch the enzymes work ..
you still need the enzymes ...

[Durace11]

My thoughts were to heat 10 gallons of water add DME, boil till hot break is accomplished, reduce temp to 168, add 2 TBS of 5.2 stabilizer, add the corn wheat and barley and cover and let sit till it cools (usually overnight). Dump in my fermenter and get my starting gravity. Add yeast and let it go.

This is the sticking point, DME has no emzymes so you would need to mash the "corn wheat and barley" with some type of malted version of the grains. Say flaked corn, flaked wheat, 6-row barley malt or flaked corn, wheat malt, barley malt(6-row or 2-row). Then the malt will convert the flaked grains. Also, you will want to add the DME after you mash so the order would be mash grains in water, remove grains, add DME, boil to hotbreak, cool, pitch. I guess you could boil the DME first if you were fermenting on the grain but I'm not sure how this is going to change your plan.

If you were adding the grains as a sweetfeed type of mixture then you are probably ok with your original plan, DME+sugar is your source of fermentable and the grains are for partial flavor contribution only.

[Crawgator]

wrong,,,,thats the temp chart at witch the enzymes work ..
you still need the enzymes ...

Let me clarify. I should have emphasized that I use malted grain. All malted grain has enzymes. Some more than others with barley the highest one I know of. I used flaked maize, malted barley. I use unmalted wheat, rye and oats as well. By mixing the malted grain in with milled unmalted I get the enzymes needed without having to add any. I usually get about 75-80% malt conversion efficiency. This is fine for me as I don't want to worry with tannins which can be a problem at mid 80% + efficiency. I especially like using flaked maize as I get good conversion at lower temps of 150 deg and shorter cook times instead of having to cook unmalted cracked corn for a long time.

[Crawgator]

My thoughts were to heat 10 gallons of water add DME, boil till hot break is accomplished, reduce temp to 168, add 2 TBS of 5.2 stabilizer, add the corn wheat and barley and cover and let sit till it cools (usually overnight). Dump in my fermenter and get my starting gravity. Add yeast and let it go.

This is the sticking point, DME has no emzymes so you would need to mash the "corn wheat and barley" with some type of malted version of the grains. Say flaked corn, flaked wheat, 6-row barley malt or flaked corn, wheat malt, barley malt(6-row or 2-row). Then the malt will convert the flaked grains. Also, you will want to add the DME after you mash so the order would be mash grains in water, remove grains, add DME, boil to hotbreak, cool, pitch. I guess you could boil the DME first if you were fermenting on the grain but I'm not sure how this is going to change your plan.

If you were adding the grains as a sweetfeed type of mixture then you are probably ok with your original plan, DME+sugar is your source of fermentable and the grains are for partial flavor contribution only.

Hmmm good point. If I used the flaked corn and malted barley do you think I would get enough to handle the task? Your order makes sense. My original thought was that I would ferment on the grain so I could have subsequent generations from same grain. Now that you mentioned the order I wonder if there would be any benefit to keeping the grain. Just drain liquid off run it and then add more water, sugar, DME and grain as needed for the next run. I was thinking that I would get some residual sugar/flavor from the grain bed for future generations.

[Durace11]

Just drain liquid off run it and then add more water, sugar, DME and grain as needed for the next run. I was thinking that I would get some residual sugar/flavor from the grain bed for future generations.

Then you are basically doing a modified sweetfeed recipe. It works for sweetfeed so it will work. You just need to play with the amount of sugar vs. DME vs. grain to get the flavor you like and go bananas. The trouble with adjusting as you go in a multi-generational ferment like this is you will probably never be able to reproduce the results because you will be adjusting your recipe as you produce additional generations. Call it your snowflake sweetfeed clone.

[Dnderhead]

so let me see if this is right, your intentions are is to make a mash...then add sugar/DME to spent grain and make a sugar head?
I thank your wasting ingredients..the only thing left after mashing grain is tannin.there is no "grain" flavor.
grain/sugarhead works becouse the grain is not mashed therefor all the grain flavor does not come out all at once.it also it still has its starches.by mashing you have removed all that can be removed.
if that could be done then the beer brewers whould just buy grain once,,then just keep addin sugar.

[Crawgator]

so let me see if this is right, your intentions are is to make a mash...then add sugar/DME to spent grain and make a sugar head?
I thank your wasting ingredients..the only thing left after mashing grain is tannin.there is no "grain" flavor.
grain/sugarhead works becouse the grain is not mashed therefor all the grain flavor does not come out all at once.it also it still has its starches.by mashing you have removed all that can be removed.
if that could be done then the beer brewers whould just buy grain once,,then just keep addin sugar.

Well... When you put it that way I'm an idiot for thinking otherwise! I was confusing the cold mash I have read here. I wasn't thinking it thru. If you mash the grain there is no goodness left!
Thanks for shedding light and saving me from wasted effort!

[Dnderhead]

you could use the grain with out mashing,,but that has been done,,,see UJSSM.
the same thing can be done with diferant grain,diferant sugars.but once it has been mashed its
"all wash up" "the end of it" "kaput" "spent"