How is the new Affordable health care plan going to affect y

[mogur]

Of the industrialized nations, we are last in healthcare, we are last in science and math. Let's not change a thing. Let's just go off into a Roman decline. We will be a third world country. How does that fit into your conservative agenda? I thought Ayn Rand wanted to 'actualize' the individual. Well, the 'individual' can't compete with true 'market forces'. What we have here is corporations with all the rights of an individual, without the 'personal responsibility' of an individual. Corporations are not evil, but they are protected from
'individual responsibility'.

Now that the supreme court has granted them individual rights, their 'deciders' should go to prison for malfeasance, when warranted. If I decide to market a drug that I know is harmful, that is fraudulent. But if I have senators and representatives on my side, I am golden. I make money and people die. Sounds good to the free market system that is our country.

[mash rookie]

Of the industrialized nations, we are last in healthcare, we are last in science and math. Let's not change a thing. Let's just go off into a Roman decline. We will be a third world country. How does that fit into your conservative agenda? I thought Ayn Rand wanted to 'actualize' the individual. Well, the 'individual' can't compete with true 'market forces'. What we have here is corporations with all the rights of an individual, without the 'personal responsibility' of an individual. Corporations are not evil, but they are protected from
'individual responsibility'.

Now that the supreme court has granted them individual rights, their 'deciders' should go to prison for malfeasance, when warranted. If I decide to market a drug that I know is harmful, that is fraudulent. But if I have senators and representatives on my side, I am golden. I make money and people die. Sounds good to the free market system that is our country.

I have had a lot of great sex on Whidbey Island and rarely have had to worry about mowing lawns. Most girls take care of the landscaping. LOL

BD, Thank you for your particapation.
MR

[Dnderhead]

this is related,,the economy is like playing a card game..as long as all win some loose some the game goes on,,if some win all the money be it legal or not,,the game stops,unless you come up with more money,,this means credit,,now if these same ones win again,,,what do you do? more credit? do to this (called inflation) the dollar is worth .07...we have only 7/100 to go befor US dollar is completely worthless..what whould you like to do? barrow /print more? or start making those that took/have it pay it back? or let the US go bankrupt? thats the choices you choose..
now most where i live make 8-10$ a hour so that about 400 a week less tax so they have a check of about 300$ a week or 1200$ a month,and health insurance is 800$? a month for one,,that leaves them
400 a month to buy food/housing etc.and many have families..
ok if you want these people to pay there bills/have insurance you can rise there pay but that means more inflation (remember the dollar is only .07)
or you can bring the upper incomes down,,so the bills are not that high to start with.

[mogur]

The sex down state 520 in the back of a van was fun. But that was 40 years ago. Now my wife makes me do it. A lot less fun. Now I have to weed whack, to beat the blackberry vines down. Ahh, the innocence of youth. I hope she doesn't read this post, I don't have the protection of a corporation. I would have to say that as CFO of this pseudo corp, I am not obligated to perform my fiduciary responsibilities. But then, she is woman, I am man. Enough said.

[MuleKicker]

this is related,,the economy is like playing a card game..as long as all win some loose some the game goes on,,if some win all the money be it legal or not,,the game stops,unless you come up with more money,,this means credit,,now if these same ones win again,,,what do you do? more credit? do to this (called inflation) the dollar is worth .07...we have only 7/100 to go befor US dollar is completely worthless..what whould you like to do? barrow /print more? or start making those that took/have it pay it back? or let the US go bankrupt? thats the choices you choose..
now most where i live make 8-10$ a hour so that about 400 a week less tax so they have a check of about 300$ a week or 1200$ a month,and health insurance is 800$? a month for one,,that leaves them
400 a month to buy food/housing etc.and many have families..
ok if you want these people to pay there bills/have insurance you can rise there pay but that means more inflation (remember the dollar is only .07)
or you can bring the upper incomes down,,so the bills are not that high to start with.

That is an awesome comparrison dnder.

[guittarmaster]

this is related,,the economy is like playing a card game..as long as all win some loose some the game goes on,,if some win all the money be it legal or not,,the game stops,unless you come up with more money,,this means credit,,now if these same ones win again,,,what do you do? more credit? do to this (called inflation) the dollar is worth .07...we have only 7/100 to go befor US dollar is completely worthless..what whould you like to do? barrow /print more? or start making those that took/have it pay it back? or let the US go bankrupt? thats the choices you choose..
now most where i live make 8-10$ a hour so that about 400 a week less tax so they have a check of about 300$ a week or 1200$ a month,and health insurance is 800$? a month for one,,that leaves them
400 a month to buy food/housing etc.and many have families..
ok if you want these people to pay there bills/have insurance you can rise there pay but that means more inflation (remember the dollar is only .07)
or you can bring the upper incomes down,,so the bills are not that high to start with.

Couldn't of said it better myself!!

[retlaw]

HERE IS OBAMA’S RESPONSE WHEN HE BACKED OFF FROM HIS DECISION TO REQUIRE THE MILITARY PAY FOR THEIR WAR INJURIES.
Bad press, including major mockery of the play by comedian Jon Stewart, led to President Obama abandoning his proposal to require veterans carry private health insurance to cover the estimated $540 billion annual cost to the federal government of treatment for injuries to military personnel received during their tours on active duty. The President admitted that he was puzzled by the magnitude of the opposition to his proposal.

"Look, it's an all volunteer force," Obama complained. "Nobody made these guys go to war. They had to have known and accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their choice ? It doesn't compute.." "I thought these were people who were proud to sacrifice for their country, "Obama continued "I wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be to try to help reduce the nation's deficit.. I guess I underestimated the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans."

[RumRaider]

HERE IS OBAMA’S RESPONSE WHEN HE BACKED OFF FROM HIS DECISION TO REQUIRE THE MILITARY PAY FOR THEIR WAR INJURIES.
Bad press, including major mockery of the play by comedian Jon Stewart, led to President Obama abandoning his proposal to require veterans carry private health insurance to cover the estimated $540 billion annual cost to the federal government of treatment for injuries to military personnel received during their tours on active duty. The President admitted that he was puzzled by the magnitude of the opposition to his proposal.

"Look, it's an all volunteer force," Obama complained. "Nobody made these guys go to war. They had to have known and accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their choice ? It doesn't compute.." "I thought these were people who were proud to sacrifice for their country, "Obama continued "I wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd
have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be to try to help reduce the nation's deficit.. I guess I underestimated the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans."

What are you talking about? Do you have a reputable source or are you just spewing hate?

[pfshine]

its a quote. how is that spewing hate? dang I got sucked in again. gotta stop lookin at this, makes my blood boil and steam roll out my ears.

[RumRaider]

What is the source of the quote? Without a reputable source it is just made up. If its made up and used to turn some people against others, it is spewing hate. Do you really think any president running for reelection would say that? Maybe you should question your own sources more often. Not everything you read on the internet is true.

[retlaw]

you could very well be right and it could have not been said by him,
after all , saying a line like that ...who would admit to it unless it was caught in public,

but he has been caught saying these lines in public:

"Let me be absolutely clear. Israel is a strong friend of Israel's."

"I've now been in 57 states I think I have one left to go."

"On this Memorial Day, as our nation honors its unbroken line of
fallen heroes, and I see many of them in the audience here today."

"What they'll say is, 'Well it costs too much money,' but you know
what? It would cost, about. It it it would cost about the same as what
we would spend. It.. Over the course of 10 years it would cost what it
would costs us. (nervous laugh) All right. Okay. We're going to. It. It
would cost us about the same as it would cost for about hold on one
second. I can't hear myself. But I'm glad you're fired up, though. I'm
glad."

"The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice,
savings and inefficiencies to our health care system."

"I bowled a 129. It's like - it was like the Special Olympics, or
something."

"Of the many responsibilities granted to a president by our
Constitution, few are more serious or more consequential than selecting
a Supreme Court justice. The members of our highest court are granted
life tenure, often serving long after the presidents who appointed them.
And they are charged with the vital task of applying principles put to
paper more than 20 centuries ago to some of the most difficult questions
of our time."

"Everybody knows that it makes no sense that you send a kid to the
emergency room for a treatable illness like asthma, they end up taking
up a hospital bed, it costs, when, if you, they just gave, you gave them
treatment early and they got some treatment, and a, a breathalyzer, or
inhalator, not a breathalyzer. I haven't had much sleep in the last 48
hours."

"It was interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is
not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of I
don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing."

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good
judgments in the future."

[retlaw]

he might not have said it in those exact words...but looks to me like thats what he ment,


On March16, 2009, members of the American Legion met with President Obama where he discussed "a proposal to force private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans who have suffered service-connected disabilities and injuries." The non-profit veterans service organization, American Legion, issued a statement voicing its concerns on its web site shortly after the meeting.

Commander David K. Rehbein of The American Legion said that Obama “ is looking to generate $540-million by this method, but refused to hear arguments about the moral and government-avowed obligations that would be compromised by it.”

A March 17, 2009 CNN article said the "chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs vowed Tuesday that the plan would never gain the panel's approval. 'VA's sacred duty is to care for veterans injured in honorable service to our nation, and the department should not turn to wounded warriors' private insurance to pay for combat injures,' said Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii. 'Under my chairmanship, the Veterans' Affairs Committee will not advance any such legislation.'"

On the afternoon of March 18, 2009 Fox News reported that the Obama administration has changed their mind on this plan.

Later forwarded versions of this eRumor included a quote not by President Obama but by the writing staff of the Jon Stewart show at COMEDY CENTRAL. Stewart made fun of this proposal during his satirical news/current events program and included a fictional quote attributed to the President.

[RumRaider]

Retlaw,
You used quotation marks to indicate that Obama said those exact words concerning veterans and their health care. You got caught spewing hate.

Your credibility is shot.

Instead of trying to change the subject, just say you are sorry and slink away.

Pfshine,
looks like you backed a loser. Will you also try to change the subject?

[blind drunk]

Your credibility is shot.

Again.

[mash rookie]

Being from the left coast and pretty open minded, I have been shocked many times in the last few years at the hatred and racism that has infected America. My girlfriend is from the US south. Georgia. She was raised in a religious rural town where everybody knew everybody, practiced the same religion and has stated that all were judged by their commitment to the church.

She has learned that she is much more comfortable here in the NW. Her gay friends were afraid to be themselves in the south. Her black freinds were direspected.
She has shared with me countless emails and facebook statements from people she grew up with and family siblings that reek of racism and hatred. She has had family members sending her rants that Obama is the devil and the resurrection of satin.

Will the endless spouting of crap end? One person makes it up and others grab on to it because it is what they want to hear. It is sad to see our country more divided than ever. We don’t have to be so extreme. I think the Tea party is about to be jetsome.

Back on topic. I don’t know yet but I hope we see real health care reform come from this.
MR

[mogur]

I was raised in the Pacific Northwest. Then I joined the Air Force in 1965 and experienced the wonderful world of the deep south during the civil rights era. Sorta woke me up. Nailing black testicles to the court house door in Bogalusa, Louisiana was not a rumor. When those hippy Californians came to march with black people for civil rights, one was gunned down in a telephone booth, in Bogalusa, LA (look it up, I was there). They were called Core (Congress of Racial Equality) protesters. There were black drinking fountains, and there were white drinking fountains, there were black restrooms and there were white restrooms. You couldn't eat at a white lunch counter if you were black. I was there, the deep south apologies are not real. They hated blacks, they hated liberals, they simply hated. They still do, but they can't can't say it aloud anymore. And they are definitely not Dixie democrats anymore, they have found their home in the Republican insanity.

I came out of a bar in northern Mississippi with a friend in 1965, with four big rednecks sitting there on the porch, asking if we liked n....., we didn't know what to say to please these obvious idiots, but I finally blurted out that yes, we like them stewed, fried, or boiled. That seemed to placate them, but I still wonder whether I should have spoke the truth. Then, (still in 1966) a friend (who happened to be asian), said why do you call them n....... ? I said that I won't anymore. And the dixiecrats all ran to the Republican party.

Dixiecrats are not democrats, they are republicans, and I can't believe that I ever said that "ni...... knocking" was cool. I did at one point in my life, but I know now that it was just insanity. Can republicans live up to their insanity?

[Tater]

that's it read rule 5. Do not discuss politics or religion. These forums are a friendly place for a community which shares a common interest: creating high quality spirits. These discussions only divide people and quickly lead to flaming and hard feelings.

[Usge]

I'll try and keep it out of the ditch of politics and religion best I can.

As to wealth: Wealth is not just finite (re: a poker game with finite bank...and when that runs out must go to credit). What is printed money anyway? We've been off the literal gold standard for many decades. Wealth can be created based on economic and other conditions (including speculation, etc). Take a few pieces of wood, a piece of canvas and some paint. How much is that worth? Now have some famous artist paint on it. Now how much is it worth? Where did that extra money come from?? It wasn't "taken" from something else. It was newly created. The value and worth of an ipod is FAR more than the sum of it's parts. Demand drives that...as do markets. But, wealth can grow and shrink as a result based on any number of factors including production.

Wealth as a "pie" is not an accurate representation of a free market economy. It might work in a place where markets are strictly controlled and regulated. But it's a terrible example for any free-market capitalist economy. In the pie example, if someone has a big slice of it...that means somebody else gets less...ie., they took more than their fair share. Another pie example might be that wealth is a bank box with only so much money in it, if somebody gets or takes a chunk of that...then there is less to go around for everybody else. In free markets...the "pie" or bank...grows and shrinks....it is never finite. I think it's easy to conflate the stagnant and falling wages of the working class....for shrinking wealth. Wages have fallen for a number of reasons...but that doesn't change how the 'pie' works. So, I'm sure some people are MORE than happy for us to all misunderstand this and go about clubbing each other on the head. But, the truth is ...the world is changing and labor/wages is bearing the brunt of it. Without living wages, there will be no middle class, nor upward mobility. We see that already. The pie is still growing and shrinking...but people's wages have been stagnant and shrinking. A lot of that is because the kind of jobs that make up a big bulk of the labor force..have been opened up to overseas markets. You aren't just competing with your neighbor, your county or your state for a job position. You are competing with indonesia, vietnam, china, mexico, etc. If you recall any of the basic laws of supply and demand...you'll see that suddenly....there is a FLOOD of available labor. And technology (as well as immigration...legal or not) has made it possible for just about anyone with a business to take advantage of it.

Wages "have" gone up. I made .65 cents an hour when I started working. My last job...I made 3x what my father made at the height of his career. The problem is...housing/transportation, and health care costs have gone through the ROOF. And much of that is not factored into the gov's assessment of "inflation". I think my Dad paid 18k for our house. And the car was about 1400. Avg salary back then was somewhere around 10k. Now...avg salary is around 45k...and that's TWO people working. And the avg cost of a house is (even now) is around 300,000 dollars. Avg cost of a car is 24k. Health care...now costs more than most people's mortgages. In Japan..they have "generational mortgages". Jobs, even good jobs...don't have pensions anymore. There aren't many pensions left in this country. On top of that...less and less people are prepared for retirement...and will depend heavily, if not entirely...on gov to provide for their well being in the future unless we make drastic changes.

Healthcare: So, long way around to get to healthcare issue directly and I apologize for that. I look at this 2 ways....the problem with healthcare is that it has just gotten too expensive. And the other side to that is the problem with healthcare is that people's wages haven't kept up with the cost increases. So, certainly, one area to look at is how to keep costs down. One direct way would be to share the cost with "everybody" and not just a portion or fewer people. It's common sense that allocating cost across more people will lower cost. And it also still allows for opportunity to make the costs of that per individual progressive (meaning different income levels pay a different percent of that cost). So, poorest people would pay little and richest people would pay more for the same healthcare coverage. The idea behind this is to "cover" everybody. The problem comes because even with a progressive code where people with lower incomes pay less....there are still people who would choose NOT to have the coverage or pay the cost if given the choice so they could use that money for something else. This is particularly true among young, healthy people...who feel that trip to Bahamas, or a new skateboard or etc...would be a better way to spend their money than on healthcare they don't really need at that point and time.

Rich people are never going to be a problem because they can afford to have whatever care they want, without having any impact on their lifestyle otherwise. So, the healthcare law is primarily focused on getting more people in the system who would not otherwise have participated ...in order to spread the cost over a larger pool. Given they know some people might opt out as a choice, or take less coverage...they created the "mandate" portion of the bill to force participation for a set level of coverage. Who will this primarily impact? Young people 26 and older OR who are not on their parents healthplan...who are going to have to start coughing up money every month for "full" coverage insurance they want it or need it or not. To a lessor extent...the impact on most of us will be...you will be required (mandated) to carry a FULL coverage insurance policy...including OBGYN, cancer, etc..whether you want it or need it or not...as this is also part of how to spread the cost of all these various areas of treatment instead of having just the people who need such coverage or have such ailments carry the burden of the cost of those treatments. If you already carry full coverage premium health insurance...there won't be a huge change. Any cost savings can easily be eaten up by progressive pricing dependent upon your income level. But, if you currently do not carry insurance, or have limited policy insurance....your costs are going to go up. Ironically, this is mostly the poor, middle class, and younger people. If you are poor and have a family or are older...the benefits are going to far outweigh the cost..but it's still going to be a "cost". For the indigent and of course..illegals in this country...everything will remain free. That cost will just be rolled into the overall cost of the mandated insurance policy.

And the kicker to it is...most of this isn't going to even start for another 2 years and will be progressively phased in over several more years. So, despite the law having been passed..and in tact...and the mandate upheld by courts...health care costs continue to rise and less people are covered today than ever before. So, we (collectively) in the US are not going to feel the impact of this truly...until it is fully implemented and that doesn't really start until 2014. You will from that point on be required to carry your own personal full coverage insurance if you do not have it through your employer or face a fine by the IRS assessed against your taxes. The fines will start low and become increasingly punitive in subsequent years. I'm guessing that the first years will be rife with fines...as people will opt to pay the low fine rather than the $$ insurance policy. Some employers may opt to drop health care benefits initially but I really doubt that many will. They will eventually be forced to carry it as fines increase. Ironically, the largest area of uninsured workers (small business) is not impacted at all by these laws. Businesses with few employees are not required to participate. So, those workers are going to have fend for themselves. But, given more and more people who have fallen off the benefit horse for healthcare...I dont' think this is really going to feel that much different.

Another sector this is going to impact heavily is doctors. Particularly gen practitioners. I know more and more of them who are selling off their practice or just getting out of the profession because it's not worth the time/risk/money to do it. Just the malpractice insurance alone is enough to bankrupt a practice. This is an area that was not reformed in the same way. Nor was pharma cost. I don't guess it would come as any surprise to anyone that these 2 were the largest lobbiest/contributors around this issue. For most doctors, malpractice insurance is 1/2 of what they make up front. Half. Sometimes it's more. For an OBGYN that might be 100-200k a year. On top of that, having your own practice means you are self-employed...which means you have to pay your own social security at the full rate (near 16%) instead of the half rate that employed people pay. And the money they earn is not capital gains...but profit...which is taxed at nominal rates based on the tax schedule. For a general practice in a small town...where a doctor might net 40-60k a year...financially..being a doctor isn't what it used to be. And if you think student loans/debt is bad...try paying graduate degree plus medschool bills! So, this bill will also have a large impact on doctors..particularly gen practioners. How that plays out will just have to wait and see. Supposedly, with more people having comprehensive coverage...there will be more visits. So, despite making less per visit...doctors will make up for it in volume (ie., working their ass off, longer hours). If you talk to a doctor...they'll tell you that's not something they are looking forward to. So, this isn't designed to help the people who provide our most important care. But, pharma will remain largely untouched. And trial lawyers will retain their position as number one in earnings profit in the nation. And both will have earnings/profits continue to be far above what health insurance companies ever made. The largest contributor to healthcare cost driving up is malpractice insurance and litigation. Number two is pharma. Neither of these were dealt with in this bill because of successful lobbying efforts by two of the most powerful and profitable industries in our nation. You can look it up (profits by sector).

The ironic part of it all is...the people most impacted by this (younger people/couples), probably never realized any of this. And probably won't until it kicks in ..in 2014 and they realize this isn't about reducing their cost or getting free stuff. The mandate is about getting all these people who didn't previously participate nor pay...to do both. When those young people figure out they are going to have to start budgeting 1,200 a year for full coverage healthcare...they neither want nor need....we are going to hear a LOT of crying and "why" and etc. And as political as I'm going to get is to say that beyond the logistical issues....there's a "reason" that this particular provision was set not to kick in until 2014 .

In the end...I think we absolutely need(ed) to have this discussion in this country about our healthcare cost/insurance. Personally, I always thought having a flat tax to cover basic care..with additional insurance available if you want to purchase something was a better looking alternative. But, instead we have this. We'll see how it works out. But, I don't see without addressing two of the biggest contributors to driving health care costs how it's going to change much in the overall scheme of things. Might slow down the rate of growth...but it's still gonna grow and become a burden on people. I think a better solution is to fix our disparity in wages/jobs and the economy/world we live in. Then people would have the money to do whatever they needed to do without jeapordizing/risking their entire future. I think we are trying to fix the wrong end of things. We need jobs that pay today's wages that reflect these costs/consideration. That will certainly drive up the cost of some things. But, then we'd also have more money in our pocket to spend. Anyway, something to ponder. Sorry for the long post. I'll get off my soap box now.

[Braz]

Usge: A very articulate and thoughtful post.

[HolyBear]

Good job USGE!!!
I wish our politicians were able to articulate the situation as well as you just did. You are exactly right in everything you said. Within all that you wrote, I can't find a single thing that is inaccurate or that I disagree with. I wish more people took the time to fully understand the situation and the implications of this legislation... very well said

[whiskeytripping]

Very well put Usge

We are at a very dangerous tipping point and I think ALL working family's will be paying close attention to what's fixing to happen, it also makes me nervous of all the increased taxes that will be going up after the new year, I just hope us that choose to work will still be able to keep our jobs, because at this time and date these tax hikes I fear will bring an even bigger strain on businesses