Help needed on large (?) setup in Ohio

[ohioguy]

Hi guys,
Hope this is going in the right place. If not feel free to close it or move it to the appropriate one.

I have been trying to help some friends out on a still they purchased several years ago. It is a 50 gallon reflux still and is plumbed to 3 90 gallon fiberglass tanks and a nice pump. I think they bought it as a closeout somewhere with intentions of getting it running one day and they want to use it to produce fuel ethanol. It sounded like a cool project, and I helped my cousin build a keg-based reflux still several years ago so I offered to try my hand at it.

I've gotten the pump working and made a 50 gallon batch of wash using feed molasses and gave it a whirl. It ended up boiling over in relatively spectacular fashion with wash jetting out of the spout where the alcohol is supposed to come out. That was enough to make me realize I might be in over my head. I've tried to read as much as I can but even doing that I don't feel especially comfortable making beginners mistakes on such a large setup.

So my question is this: are there any experienced board members here who would be willing to come help me run the still for a morning or afternoon? The still is in the Central Ohio area. I would feel much better about running it if someone could come and look over everything again with me and help me do a run. If there isn't then I would appreciate getting some advice on various things. Should I post my questions here?

Here is a picture of the still. I can take more if you'd like. I've since added insulation so it doesn't look as pretty anymore!

http://imgur.com/Dqc4O

Any help is appreciated.

[Dnderhead]

you put 50gal in a 50 gallon pot? like boiling pasta on the stove,,you need head room.fill about 2/3 full.
next after bringing it to a boil turn the heat down to a rolling boil..

[ohioguy]

Yeah, or pretty close to that. I had emailed back and forth with the manufacturer (Revenoor) and they said the stills were designed to be run full..

And how do I determine what a good rolling boil is? The pot temp was around 210-220 when it boiled over. Maybe around 200?

Any other problems I could be missing?

[HolyBear]

That still looks like crap... guess ide take it off yer hands and scrap it fer ya. Might bring a dollar or two at tha yard... shhh just kidding a course, very nice!!!! I've slobbered over the revenour site afor... you've got a real nice one there....
First welcome!!! Try reading this to better understand temps and the process...
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=16635

Lots of good reading in the new distiller reading lounge...

[Prairiepiss]

You can't fill the boiler up. The boiler charge will foam up at boil. It has to go somewhere? But Dnderhead already said that.

[fullhouse]

i just left Columbus Ohio yesterday from vaction...wish i had known i would have stopped in and gave u a hand..like MrP and Dndr have said tho u cant run it full...and temp has very lil to do with it actually...good luck

[Dnderhead]

as stated you cant fill it full, how much depends on the wash.some tend to foam more than others.
a dry sugar wash you could git away with more than grain,most fruit foam and as many of the vegetables.
now as for "rolling boil" you can hear that,,I listen when I hear it start to boil I keep feeling the column.(this is something you determine for your still)
the heat will work its way up..when it gits about 1/2 way up you want to turn the heat down,sort of like a pot of potatoes on the stove
you need to do this befor it boils over.(pukes)as makes a mess as you had.

[myles]

If you dont mind the noise just add a handfull of "boiling chips", you should have some in there anyway to even out the boil. I have been told that a handfull of glass marbles works well.

[ohioguy]

So the still is now running on 3 240V 4500W hot water heaters. It heats the thing much better than the propane burner it came with, gets the mash to 200 degrees in about an hour compared to three or four with the burner.

Anyway, here's my next question. I did another run this morning and got the column temp 170-180..and no alcohol came out. What did happen again was the still moved around a little bit and was making a very audible boiling noise, and the column itself was rattling (I think the noise was coming from the marbles inside the column moving around). Am I correct in assuming this isn't supposed to happen?

Here's my theory: we are using a cheap molasses based wash made out of this stuff: http://imgur.com/yNmsH.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . It seems to ferment ok as it is about 40% sugar, and we are only pumping the liquid from the solution we make from it into the still, leaving the substrate the molasses is sprayed on behind. But my guess is that this stuff foams a lot when boiled, and maybe we are getting a lot of expansion and foam that is entering the column that is interfering with any refluxing that should be happen. Is that possible or am I barking up the wrong tree?

And just for fun, here's a pic of what happened several weeks ago on our first attempted run: http://imgur.com/ltEhR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Yes that is very hot molasses wash spraying out the alcohol receiver tube...

Would doing a water distillation run help clean the still out? Maybe something is still clogged from the boil over?

[Prairiepiss]

You didn't clean it out after the puke run? I would defiantly do a water run at least.

Now you may hear the marbles chater in the column as it runs. But you don't want to hear gurgling. That tends to man its flooded. And your running to hard.

Do you have a controller on your elements? Because 13500 watts is quite a bit. And I would bet after heat up only one element at 4500w would be needed to run it. If not less?

And the column temp. You will need to push it a little higher till you get flow coming out your takeoff. You can't control the temps. The ABV of the wash does this. You will have to find out what works for your still.

Give us a rundown on how you are running the still?

Another question. What ABV are you fermenting the wash to?

[Boda Getta]

A word of caution: Do your guys have a gov't permit to distill fuel ethanol? If not, they (and you if you actually run the still) are in the same boat as the rest of us..... except that setup is much larger that the normal hobby distiller, has 270 gals of wash tanks and pump transfer. etc etc. The law would likely consider that as a commercial moon shining setup and be particularly nasty about it. I would be very, very careful.

BG

[Coyote]

Got to think that the sprayed mess on the wall really pissed off the women of the house

Coyote

[ohioguy]

You didn't clean it out after the puke run? I would defiantly do a water run at least.

Now you may hear the marbles chater in the column as it runs. But you don't want to hear gurgling. That tends to man its flooded. And your running to hard.

Do you have a controller on your elements? Because 13500 watts is quite a bit. And I would bet after heat up only one element at 4500w would be needed to run it. If not less?

And the column temp. You will need to push it a little higher till you get flow coming out your takeoff. You can't control the temps. The ABV of the wash does this. You will have to find out what works for your still.

Give us a rundown on how you are running the still?

Another question. What ABV are you fermenting the wash to?

The three elements are all wired separately so they can be individually turned on and off. I had all 3 on until the wash hit about 190 in the pot, dropped down to 2 until 200. Experimented with only having one on but column temp seemed to drop once there was only one on.

So I am incorrect in trying to keep the column temp between 170 and 180 during it's initial rise? I should allow it to go higher? Haven't read that anywhere but of course could've missed it. How high should it go? Just until something starts coming out? And also when should I start running water through the cooling coils? The past two runs I've been turning it on slowly as the column temp starts to rise in an attempt to hold it between 170-180, which is where I've been told fuel-grade proof alcohol will be produced.

Haven't been able to get an ABV reading I trust because there is still a lot of suspended sediment in this molasses wash stuff. I think I'm going to suggest they buy a bunch of sugar and I'll do a dry sugar wash. That way I'll have an exact ABV going in and no unnecessary sediment to worry about.

Here's how I've been running the still:
1. Pump wash in (about 45-50 gallons, manufacturer insist the still is designed to be "run full").
2. Turn on all 3 heater elements until wash temp reads 190.
3. Turn down to 2 elements..pot temp slowly creeps to 200+. At this point I slowly start running water through the condensing coils.
4. A few minutes later column temp starts to increase rapidly. Loud boiling can be heard and still shakes some. Increase water to hold temp between 170-180...no alcohol produced though. Boiling noise got louder and still started to shake more..I got nervous and shut it all off. Didn't want to have another boil over. Funny thing is the time it boiled over we got a few drops of ethanol before that stopped and it boiled over

That's what I did this morning. I think I'm going to clean out the still and make sure there are no clogged pipes and then maybe do a water run to clean?

[Prairiepiss]

Ok your getting fixated on temps. This is a cm still. It's like a pot still with added reflux assist.

You should have separate controls over the reflux condenser and the product condenser? Do you not?
The still is controlled by the reflux condenser and how much cooling you out into it. CM stands for cooling management.

You need to bring the wash up to temp. When it gets to around 180ish start flow to both condensers. And kill one element. At this point the column should be getting warm to the touch. When the bottom gets hot enough you can't hold your hand on it. It's getting close. At this point you should have cooling water flowing through both condensers at a good pace. You want lots of cooling at this point.

Next the column up just below the reflux condenser will get so hot you vast touch it. At this point you ate really close if not already refluxing. You want the column to run in 100% reflux for around 45 to 60 min. That means the reflux condenser is knocking down all the vapors that the boiler is making. And you will more then likely hear it inside the column or boiler. Sounding like rain falling. By running the column in 100% reflux you are allowing it to equalize the needed temp gradient. And also stacking the fores at the top of the column.

If you have two elements on and you can't get 100% reflux. And you have product coming out. It's to much heat. You will need to either switch one off. Or have a controller on one so you can turn it down some.

So it has been refluxing for the aloted time. With no product coming out. Now you adjust tje flow of water through the reflux condenser to get product. The more you turn it down the faster it will come out. But remember the faster it comes out the less stable the column temp gradient will be. And the ABV coming out will drop off quickly if its to fast. Watch the temp at the top of the column. You want it steady. I can't tell you what that temp is. As all stills are different. So you will have to figure this out.

But now you should be collecting fores. How much to collect as fores will depend on how much wash you have in the boiler.

When you have collected the alotted amount of fores. Crank the cooling flow to the reflux condenser back up to get 100% reflux again. Allow it to run in full reflux again for 15 to 30 min. To stabilize the temp gradient equalize it again. Stacking the heads this time. Then back the coolant flow down again to get the output you want. Slower the output higher the ABV faster the output the lower the ABV. Collect the product. The heads will come off first then hearts then tails. It mite slow down if not stop when the tails come on.


Now I will say this one more time.
You can not run the boiler full. Especially with a molasses wash.
The manufacture (although a respected one) can claim many things. But I am telling you it will foam up and that foam has to go somewhere. Guess where its going. Right up the column and puke right out the takeoff. You need headspace in the boiler for the foam. So it doesn't get into the column. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Like Dnderhead pointed out a boiler charge of 2/3rds it volume is a good recommendation.


And as far as SG readings. It may not be accurate with the molasses. But it will give you some point of reference.

[whiskeytripping]

+1 Boda

[ohioguy]

Thank you for the in depth response, I really appreciate it. I know explaining stuff to new folks isn't always fun so I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I guess I need your help in figuring out controlling the condensers. The only control valve I've been using is the one at the top of the picture for the condenser inside the column, which I assume is the reflux condenser? I haven't been doing anything for the condenser hanging off the side of the column (product condenser?). Could this have been (another) reason why the still puked first time around?

Here is a detailed pic of what I'm working with http://imgur.com/o7p7n" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The only control valve I've been using is the one in the upper right hand corner of the picture. Now I'm guessing I should also be using the one that is adjacent to the cold water inlet (in the middle part of the picture)?

I will also pump some of the molasses wash out until the boiler is only 2/3rds full if I try again with the molasses.

During the 45-60min reflux stage, no vapors/alcohol will be coming out right? And is it ok if the boiler temp continues to rise to 200+ degrees with 2 elements on?

I know it seems like I'm hung up on temps, but as a newbie with little experience it is the only indication I have of what might be going on in the still. Especially with the aforementioned puke incident I'm trying to be cautious, but I also understand that temps vary for all these stages and the ultimate goal is creating vapor and reflux, not getting the wash to X degrees and the column to Y degrees.

[Dnderhead]

"And is it ok if the boiler temp continues to rise to 200+ degrees with 2 elements on?"
its going to boil at whatever it boils at,more heat harder boil,less heat softer boil.
the temperature will stay the same.the more alcohol the lower the temperature it will boil at,, less alcohol the higher the temperature.not much you can do other than regulate how fast it boils.

[Prairiepiss]

It is so much easier for the rest of us if you attach the pics in your posts.

[Prairiepiss]

As Dnderhead head said. You can't control the boiler temp. And someone already posted a link to a great thread explaining it. It needs to boil for it to work. The boiling point of water is 212 f and pure alcohol is 173 f. So a mixture of the two the boiling point would be in-between those two numbers somewhere. Depending on how much alcohol in in it. So you have no control over the boiler temp. The ABV of the wash does.

[Prairiepiss]

The valve on the bottom is to control tje product condenser. The one on top is for the reflux condenser.

[Dnderhead]

the only thing the pot/boiler temperature will do is to tell how much alcohol is in the wash..and to do this you better be good at calculations.