Incidentally, I have found in my research that the practice of forcing air through spirit has been around for a while and is claimed to, at "1 or 2 atmospheres" improve and smooth the harsh young spirit.
From the parent site section on aging....But I've been told that a bubbler is not useful here...hmmm...
....here's something I read in a book called "The Manufacture of Spirit as Conducted in the Distilleries of the UK" by J.A.Nettleton, 1893......
On the maturation of whisky...The raw spirit is placed in a tall cylinder and a currant of air or oxygen under pressure of one or two atmospheres, is forced through the spirit. The operation extending intermittently for ten days. The raw spirit is alleged to acquire a mellowness of three to five years bonding. These process help to rid the whisky of off flavours and helps smooth the taste....
The new whisky is placed in a small vat and alternate currants of hot and cold air are passed through. Both during and after the aeration a little sherry or similar wine is added to the spirit, and so are minute quantities of sulphuric acid or pottasic hydric sulphate. The latter in view of intensifying the action of the wine. The whole of the mineral acid and of the salt is afterwards removed by the addition of a small quantity of powdered and slaked lime, and the whisky then removed from the small sediment which occurs.
“Well, between Scotch and nothin', I suppose I'd take Scotch. It's the nearest thing to good moonshine I can find.”
William Faulkner (1897-1962)
My high school buddy works for a company in charleston where he manages custom liquors for restaurants etc. They essentially will produce and finish any liquor per your request and with any flavors...they usually run distinct company mixtures such as the vodka at Pearlz oyster shooter bar...they just recently made it into popular science with the use of TerrePURE to quickly produce the esters in the alcohol just thought it was worth a share and it shows odin was on the right path
Odin wrote:I air out my drinks before tasting & making cuts.
When I made cuts, I find that airing with the stone you mentioned does help aging. I do that for like a few hours. It speeds up what I call "stabilization" of the drink. Somehow some rest gives a drink time to reach an equilibrium. Or so I explain to myself.
After cutting it takes at least two days before I want to take a sip or two to see if its okay. Then, I keep it bottled up with some head space for 5 weeks. The two days & the 5 weeks period both have an impact. The product gets better.
Airing with a fish tank stone speeds up the process a bit. So it is not necesairy. Unless you are in a hurry.
Recently, I have been doing some experiments with ultrasonic aging. And that does make a difference.
The normal "after two days" result, I can now get after an ultrasonic treatment of 5 minutes.
Further ultrasonic treatmens (like another 3 times 5 minutes) get me to what I normally have after the five weeks rest. This means I can get the same quality likker in a day (I give the drink some rest between ultrasonic treatments), that would otherwise take at least five weeks.
I tried to continue from there. Like giving my drinks 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 treatments, but nothing changed. I got the drink as well as I could get it after what would otherwise take five weeks of rest. I am talking rest here, not "five weeks of on wood" or sumtin'
Took another angle at it, since I have an ultrasonic cleaner that also allows me to warm up my likker.
Made it like 35 degrees C and gave the drink another few treatments.
What I got was astonishing. Better than I would get with airing or time or time & airing together. A new level.
I treated my vodka like this and it worked (old style vodka with some taste & mouth feel left), I did it to my Eau-de-Vie (like a vodka/whiskey in between) with good results. First tests on my geneva (just tonight) are very, very promissing. My whiskey though did not get that much better. But maybe that is because my whiskey was not that great to start from.
Slowly trailing of topic here.
Odin.
I know this topic is a couple months old but are you still experimenting with the cleaner?
Is it worth buying the cleaner to speed up the aging for somebody that's getting impatient to wait for something to drink and not wanting to pay 38 dollars a litre for government store bought likker anymore.
Have you oaked anything that you put in the cleaner?
For a start, I find that my vodka, geneva (Dutch gin) and whiskey need some rest time to get to their full potential. If we take whiskey and gin out of the equasion, for the moment, I see two sorta stages happening. After distilling and making a 96% neutral, I dilute to 37.5% (I like my vodka at that percentage). It somehow takes like three days of rest to make a drinkable vodka. I think 70% of its potential is reached in those three days. Next thing I learned by making vodka is that it takes another 5 weeks of rest to really reach its optimal taste. This extra resting period sorta smoothes out the drink.
Now, if I mix my vodka and put it in the ultrasonic cleaner, I can get to 70% in one 10 minute run at 20 Khz. In order to reach the full potential, a slightly different approach is needed (if you don't want to wait 5 weeks). You need the ultrasonic cleaning as well as the heating. Two or three more runs of 10 minutes at 20 Khz with the temperature at 35 degrees C will get me their. In between the runs I just let the vodka sit in the cleaner. The in between time is like 10 to 20 minutes. And I turn the cleaner (and heating) off. This way the drink can cool off a bit. Ultrasonic waves and the heat applied can otherwise give higher temperatures than 40 degrees C (104 F) and I want it to stay under that. The cleaner has a heater, but not a cooler.
Fast forward to gin. My Dutch gin shows the same aging cycle as vodka. After final distillation and dilution (to my taste: 43% is perfect for a gin), the same process as before can be applied.
Gin making can be helped by ultrasonic aging in another way. I distill with my herbs in the boiler. Hot compounding. Herbs is a 40 to 50% neutral for instance. Then redistill. Now for the interesting part: with this cleaner, you can put the herbs in the base likker IN the cleaner. Give it three runs like before and you get much more extraction of essential oils from the berries and herbs. Faster, an even slightly more intense taste. And you can bring your berry & herbs bill back wit one third. Less ingredients needed.
In whiskey maturation two main processes take place. Wood gives of flavours. Time (aging) allows fatty accids to be transformed into tasty esters. I think a white dog whiskey also benefits from - say - five weeks of rest. With the process explained above, you can get there in a day. Maybe not entirely, because part of the aging process has to do with O2 contact. And the O2 contact is only enhanced slightly with the ultrasonic cleaning. But gains are made.
More interesting: give your freshly diluted white dog a treatment or two, lay it to rest 5 weeks with a lot air above the liquid, then give it another two treatments. It gets better by far.
The process of "wooding" the whiskey can also benefit from ultrasonic aging. I age with JD wood smoking chips. Take a 60% white dog, put a liter in the cleaner, add chips, give it two treatments, and you speeded up and intensified the process of taste extraction from the wood.
Hope this helps.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
10 Khz and 20 Khz. From the papers I studied from the 30's and 50's I understood that 18,000 Hz or more is best. So I normally choose 20 Khz. Another trash hold is: 20 watts of power per liter of "cleaned" liquid.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Odin wrote:10 Khz and 20 Khz. From the papers I studied from the 30's and 50's I understood that 18,000 Hz or more is best. So I normally choose 20 Khz. Another trash hold is: 20 watts of power per liter of "cleaned" liquid.
Odin.
Most of the ultrasonic cleaners I have found are 40 khz, will they work or is 20 khz the magic number?
Sorry about asking so many questions but if I'm laying out 200 dollars for a cleaner I want to make sure I'm buying the right one.
what do you think about this one http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... ink:top:en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Interesting! I'm wanting to experiment with maceration and aging, but have a question.
Are you placing the bottles in the cleaner, or pouring the alcohol directly into the basin? I'm hesitent to pour directly, but since you bought new I guess you could and take advantage of the increased space.
The theory behind it, Dunder, as I understand is as follows. Not saying I can reproduce it accurately enough. Or if the theory is right. But the results are impressive. Last night for instance I decided to give my walnut brandy a few runs in the cleaner. Lots of extraction. I felt no need to wait 3 more weeks. Filtered it late last night. It is resting as we speak. I will leave it there for a month or two and give it another two runs after that. It will be ready by Xmass. And it will be good. Actually, it was pretty good, when I tried a bit last night, already. The oats/rye combo whiskey I made, I also treated. Took a big sip yesterday, and it was smoother too.
Okay, back to the theory. As I understand it from the papers from the 30's and 50's.
Whiskey (in the examples from the papers) needs time to age. Essentially time is what is needed to change fatty accids into tasty esters (hope I reproduce this correctly). This process goes slowly, since the chemical reactions that take place only occure when certain molecules meet. By introducing ultrasonic waves the process is speeded up. Small, tiny bubbles are formed and immediately shocked (by the Khz) into oblivion. Thus creating vivid interaction: molecules running into each other, speeding up the chemical process of turning fatty accids into esters.
When I use the cleaner, and look into it (it has a removable lid), I can see the fluid tremble / ripple. But more interestingly in the fluid fractals form. I hope I am clear: structures like lightning (not in light - dark actually - but in form). Or like snow flakes under a microscope (only not so nicely shaped): strange fork-like threads moving thru the liquid. Apearing, disapearing, making shreeking sounds. Really, I am not bullshitting you. These "fractal" structures seem almost sollid. At first I thought it was like wood particles from my whiskey joining up. But it isn't that. The cleanest vodka gives the same fractal structures.
Anyhow, it is pretty impressive. I will try to make some small video of it, maybe in the weekend and post it (not sure if/how that works). Something different than just stirring takes place for sure.
At first I was affraid I would loose some abv with this method, and that maybe most of its success could be caused by the heating process (even without the heater on, the Khz heat the liquid by themselves). And that this would cause more volatile alcohols to be pushed out of the solution. But there is a lid on. No, it is not like forced aging by heating a bottle to 50 degrees C and then unscrewing the cap.
I took measurements of likker before treatment and after treatment and I couldn't find differences in abv.
Dunder, to prevent evaporation (even a bit, because it stays under 40 degrees C), I leave the lid on normally. Would a test without lid be benificial? If so, let me know, I expect to do some distilling tomorrow or the day after, so in the weekend I can do test runs.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
I remember hearing wine and vibrations do not mix, so I dug this up
Taken from here- http://howtostorewine.com/effect_of_vibration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Vibration is another enemy of wine. As red wine ages, it is common for the wine to “throw sediment”, a natural aging process which physically separates solids, principally tannic acid, from the wine. For this reason, collectors will often try to introduce as little movement as possible into the aging equation, for fear of re-integrating sediments back into the wine.
On a larger scale, vibration introduces kinetic energy into the wine, which is the opposite of what you are seeking to achieve...Slow aging allows a fine wine to develop aroma and complexity of flavor..Vibration will, in relative terms, expedite these chemical reactions and advance maturity, undermining efforts to facilitate long term aging. Think back to chemistry class, and recall that many reactions are expedited by stirring. The same principle holds true for wine naturally maturing through chemical change. A vibration prone environment will, in relative terms, cause wine to mature more rapidly.
Accordingly, avoid storage near vibration causing mechanical and electrical equipment. Pumps, washing machines, clothes dryers, dishwashers, and stereos are all on the list. Air handling equipment should be equipped with dampers to minimize any vibration.
I knew vibrations were terrible according to those who store wine. It appears though is does accelerate aging (as Odin has discovered), it may also seperate non-alcohol particles. Interestingly mentioned are the tannins. Perhaps care should be used when aging whisky? Or perhaps you should shake it like a crying baby before oaking?
Have you noticed any seperation, or at this ABV will it pretty much stay in solution?
There shouldn't be anything in a distilled spirit to fall out of suspension. So that shouldn't be a problem. Now if its being aged on wood or something similar. Your wanting it to mix and stay suspended. So it has good contact with the liquid. That's why you will read that most will shake their aging containers from time to time.
Nothing falls out of suspension, actually. That was just a first impression I had, because shapes occure in the vibrating liquid. It is fractals of colliding streams of liquid. Nothing falls out or becomes "particles" again. Everything stays the way it is. Apart from taste, which smoothes out.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
I think this all comes back to what was found a long time ago. Where they say the whiskey in barrels that were shipped out on ships. Would age faster from the movement of the ships. Compared to a stationary barrel.
You can put some oak in the fresh likker and give it an ultrasonic cleaning run together. It gains collour faster, so I guess it is helping (or at least: speeding up) the process a bit.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Apologies for bumping such an old thread... but the information is still valid!
On this thread you suggest the use of ultrasound can replicate a 'speeded up' aging process *after* distillation but on this thread (http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p6997275) you say you've got some juniper berries sitting in alcohol in your cleaner.
If I'm understanding you right do you also use it when making gin to replicate a 'speeded up' maceration process *before* distillation?
Yes you understood me correctly. The primary use of the ultrasonic cleaning is to smooth out and fast-age product. But if you want to macerate, prior to distilling, ultrasonic cleaning helps get more taste transfer as well.
Dual purpose, one might say.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
I usually air out for 24 hours - usually I can pick out what to keep or not before airing with recipes I use all the time, but the airing helps out a lot. Smoothens it out nice. Another thing I do (taking from how some crappy vodka maker does it (that swedish crap?) that lets it sit in bottles for a while)
When adding chips, I put it on the HVAC heater in the winter - this speeds this process up
Point? If airing, let it sit a while longer in yer closed jars ... at least 3 weeks. If using chips, do that for a few weeks on a heater vent to taste. Good to see you realizing greed == nothing good - perfect! Let it sit a wee bit longer, and really enjoy it!
Currently enjoying a Single Malt Mix - 25% AG, 40% reuse the grain with dextrose with 2 wks on medium toast chips, 35% on raw white dog final grain reuse with sugar ... I know it is doing something to me, don't feel it killing me as I drink it
LTV - "keep in mind distilling is like masturbating. You do one wrong and you go blind."
Want to keep people from consulting idiots on youTube about distilling?? Don't be an idiot when someone asks for advice ... Help them
I got a very happy surprise while airing out my last run. As the heads of the run begin to fade into the hearts.... I collect the distillate in pint jars and save them.... I then collect the hearts in larger jars.... and as they begin to fade into the tails.... I again collect into pints and save several.... all in numerical order as they came off the still..... I like to air my jars for 24 to 48 hrs. covered with coffee filters. What I find is that the heads taste more headsy..therefore making that cut easier.... the hearts taste even cleaner..... and on this last run.... to my surprise.... the first 2 pints of tails at 135 and 130 proof.... lost all signs of tails smell or flavor... they were sooooo smooth and had a wonderful rich taste... they were added back into my hearts and added a nice depth and roundness.... I will try airing out a little deeper into the tails on my next run and see what happens.
chocdoc wrote:Odin - how much could you shortcut your easy gin maceration time with ultrasound do you think?
Not to answer for Odin but we have basically the same US machines. For me I probably save 3 weeks to several months. Using Odin's method with 3 ten minute baths and letting it sit between each one about 20 minutes or so. What I like about it is like the microwave method it gives an early indicator of the product. I still think aging needs to happen to better improve taste.
Wondering though about the maceration time - his easy gin method calls for 2 weeks maceration before distilling - wondering how much that could be shortcut.
More good news on airing out before I blend my new distillate. on my last run I wanted to go a little deeper into the tails to see if airing would help clean them up. This run.... I went down to 127 proof.... which was definite cardboard tails.... I would never have let it into my final mix..... aired out for a day and a half.... all signs of cardboard were gone.... nice buttery taste with some saltiness... just a touch... and a very very faint bitterness at the end. I added into my final mix, which I believe benefited from its addition. Heads are a different story for me.... Heads on this run were petering out in the 155 proof area and I was hopeful that airing would smooth the first few pints of 155 out.... It did not... at least not enough to keep them in the final product.... it did however smooth out my first quart of hearts at 155. At least for my basic CRB Bourbon recipe, being able to air out and add deeper tails has given my product a deeper and more rounded taste...... Now to see how she ages on toasted and chard oak.... I have 2.5 gal of fine distillate at 120 proof to play with !
before oaking?
