Small Barrel Aging - Two Schools of Thought?

[OCDistiller]

I recently bought two 3L barrels; one to age a spiced rum and the other to age bourbon. I understand that small barrels like mine will oak very quickly (though how quickly seems to be up for debate), I understand that new barrels oak even quicker, but I've been reading dozens of pages in this forum on aging and am confused by what I see as two totally opposing schools of thought.

They are:

1) Leave your product in the barrel for 30-40 days per Gallon (4L). Keep tasting it and as soon as it starts tasting very oaky, dump it. Leaving it in beyond that will cause it to be over-oaked/"taste like a stick".

2) Your product will be over-oaked/taste like a stick after a month or so because you haven't aged it long enough. Leave it in there for about a year. The oak will mellow and it will taste great.

How can these both be true?

[junkyard dawg]

Well, of the two scenarios, the first can be quantified. The surface area of a small barrel can be calculated and compared to a standard whiskey barrel. Based on the volume, the small barrel exposes much more oak to the whiskey.

The second scenario is harder for me to follow. I believe shine in a new barrel will get too much oak in it because of the volume/surface area ratio of a small barrel. Age will help, but too much oak is too much. Ultimately you decide when its got enough.

I always would rather get a batch in the barrel, aged til I liked it, then put in glass. So, then I could put a new batch in the barrel...

[BareKnuckles]

Welcome srbutler... Oak it till you like it is my school of thought...

Hop on over to the welcome center and give us a proper introduction...

Be safe..

[Dnderhead]

id go with a month per gallon,,then take it out and age in glass.that short of time is not really aging,more like flavoring.

[Barney Fife]

To add to what dnder said, there's aging, and there's flavoring, and they are VERY different.

With a 3L toy barrel, the best you can hope for is flavoring. Get it out of there when it tastes fine.

[rtalbigr]

You need to understand what's going on when you age spirits with white oak. When you char or toast the oak the heat breaks up the chains of some of the organic compounds in the wood to smaller chains, simpler compounds, making the wood sugars and other compounds more available. These then interact with the alcohol which is the aging process. The simple fact is that this process takes time. Whether you leave it on the oak or transfer to glass, the aging process is still continuing, and until it is completed you will have those woody notes in the flavors. It's not that you're over-oaking, per se, but that you're not allowing the process of aging to go to completion.

The disadvantage of using smaller barrels is that there is greater contact, but you can't really make the comparison with volume and surface area as it relates to the aging process directly. With the smaller barrel you will be extracting the woody compounds faster, however, you still have to allow for the time it takes for all the chemical changes to occur. That's not going to happen in the 1 month/gallon time frame.

Big R

[NcHooch]

have a read through this , http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=16372

Suffice to say , lots of opinions and variables. I left a bourbon in a 5 liter barrel for 3 months and it turned out excellent, ...but you'll definitely wanna keep a close eye on it after 4-6 weeks . Angel's share is higher in a small barrel too.

[OCDistiller]

rtalbigr: You have spelled out the ambiguity I'm seeing perfectly.

"Whether you leave it on the oak or transfer to glass, the aging process is still continuing, and until it is completed you will have those woody notes in the flavors. It's not that you're over-oaking, per se, but that you're not allowing the process of aging to go to completion."

So, it sounds like you're saying that "over-oaked" whiskey is just whiskey that hasn't been allowed to age to completion.

Also, how can whiskey/bourbon/rum age in glass? There's no gas transfer going on, no interaction with wood or oxygen, causing the changes of organic compounds producing flavors.

[rtalbigr]

rtalbigr: You have spelled out the ambiguity I'm seeing perfectly.

"Whether you leave it on the oak or transfer to glass, the aging process is still continuing, and until it is completed you will have those woody notes in the flavors. It's not that you're over-oaking, per se, but that you're not allowing the process of aging to go to completion."

So, it sounds like you're saying that "over-oaked" whiskey is just whiskey that hasn't been allowed to age to completion.

Also, how can whiskey/bourbon/rum age in glass? There's no gas transfer going on, no interaction with wood or oxygen, causing the changes of organic compounds producing flavors.

The whole concept revolves around time. In a 50 gal barrel the products from the charred wood are leached by the components of the spirits, alcohol, water, etc. But they're all together in that barrel for three or more years during which the chemical changes occur. When using the small barrels that craft distillers use, the volume to surface area ratio is different enough that you don't leave it in the barrel for that length of time. But the leached products are still there and they need time for the reactions to completely occur.

Oxygenation in barreled spirits occurs due to changes in the oak tannins during the charring/toasting. Migration of oxygen into the barrels is activated by the tannins. With tannins that have leached into the spirits by the water and acid compounds in the spirits, it's simply a matter when transferring to glass to leave head space so that oxygen is available.

In my experience there is a noticeable difference in quality over time. Just nine months to a year makes a significant difference. Bitterness and astringency decline noticeably, vanillins and other flavors, like subtle hints of butterscotch and chocolate, are more pronounced, and woody flavors are subdued and become part of a more complex and desireable spectrum.

Just because, as craft distillers, we are making considerably smaller batches and can be more discerning with quality, doesn't mean that we can cut the aging process short. If your goal is to just make likker, than take what ever short cuts you want and be satisfied with what you have. But if your goal is a truly superior product, then you have to take it to the obvious conclusion, which is proper aging, which takes time, lots of time.

Big R

[Washashore]

To the OP, I applaud you for researching before posting. The guys pretty much nailed it and can't add much more. Just thought I'd give you a thumbs up and say welcome to the club

[OCDistiller]

rtalbigr: Thank you, that really was a great answer. This is all quite new to me and I'm feeling my way through bit by bit.

[Hectorious]

"The whole concept revolves around time. In a 50 gal barrel the products from the charred wood are leached by the components of the spirits, alcohol, water, etc. But they're all together in that barrel for three or more years during which the chemical changes occur. When using the small barrels that craft distillers use, the volume to surface area ratio is different enough that you don't leave it in the barrel for that length of time. But the leached products are still there and they need time for the reactions to completely occur. "

I wonder if that explains the maturation of Gin. I never could understand why gin is aged for at least 35 days after distilation, as this aging takes place in sealed glass or stainless steel; what could possibly be going on in there in the absence of oxygen or wood? But if the various flavour compounds introduced from the botanicals during gin's spirit run come off independantly, and then need some time to age with each other - to "mingle" and react with the compounds from the various other herbs and botanicals in the mix, then this makes sense. I get it, I think: with oak, various compounds are extracted from the wood and disolved into the liquor. Once there, they continue to react with each other, regardless of whether its still in the barrel (disolving more of those compounds) or in glass (not picking up more). Leaving liquor in a small barrel with high surface area to volume ratio results in wood compounds being added faster than they can react with each other and mellow, resulting in over-oaking, before the whiskey is mature. With a bigger barrel, the slower release of the compounds is more in equilibrium with the maturation process, so you have a ballanced flavour profile once your extended aging period is over.

Have I got that right?? I hope so, because I feel like a huge light bulb just went off in my head, and a mystery of the distilling universe has been revealed!!

[OCDistiller]

Dude, I think you nailed it and just answered a whole bunch of questions for me at once. The other questions I was dealing with is why do all the liqueur recipies say to leave it in a glass bottle for a month or so and why do they say to shake it regularly. I asked those in other places and got a lot of conflicting and unclear answers. You just answered both of those. Nice!

So basically, I can take my stuff out of the barrels, but should then leave it for a while in glass. Thanks man. Spot on.

[bcboyz86]

So a small side question to all of that... How many batches can you run through before needing to re-char/toast the inside of the barrell again, and does the previous likker impart its flavor onto the immediate next batch(rum-whiskey or something similar)? I'm guessing that the first batch will leach out a lot of flavor quickly and each batch after that will take a little longer and a little longer..so is it a taste it every so often till I get what I want, and just expect it to take longer each new time?. Or is there some magical wood properties they didn't explain to me in woodshop that allows me to go batch after batch without having to re-do the inside of the barrell. And when I do, re-char the inside is it simply putting a torch head on the hole and letting her rip for a bit, then plug the hole to put any fires out on the inside? I can't ever seem to find the hinged door on smaller barrells :/

[Durace11]

How many batches can you run through before needing to re-char/toast the inside of the barrell again, and does the previous likker impart its flavor onto the immediate next batch(rum-whiskey or something similar)?
Depends on how long each batch stays on the wood, if you age for years it is going to deplete the wood more than if you only age a few weeks/months. The previous liquor will always leave some of itself behind, how much, depends on a lot of factors.


I'm guessing that the first batch will leach out a lot of flavor quickly and each batch after that will take a little longer and a little longer..so is it a taste it every so often till I get what I want, and just expect it to take longer each new time?.
Yes & yes, first batch will get the most flavor the quickest, as the barrel gets older it gives less and it takes longer.

And when I do, re-char the inside is it simply putting a torch head on the hole and letting her rip for a bit, then plug the hole to put any fires out on the inside? I can't ever seem to find the hinged door on smaller barrells :/
You take off the barrel bands from only one end and remove one of the heads(ends). Then scrape the inside clean and re-char the clean wood. The staves will get thinner as you continue to scrape and rechar so the barrel should be leak tested after each rechar to ensure it's still holding liquid & also to ensure you tightened the bands enough to hold it together.

[bcboyz86]

What if I can't remove the rings to take it apart? There's a cleaning kit that website sells for about $14, but the process never says anything about scraping the wood, just using chemicals to clean it. Would I need to throw in some sharp rocks and shake the bajeezus outa it to maybe know off some of the char and re-flame it later? Or do you think I would just be S.O.L.? I have never done barrells, so maybe ya can take them off...but the pictures don't make it look like it would be easy...if possible at all.

[junkyard dawg]

its really easy to get them apart.

Putting them back together is a whole other thing.

Very few people would have the time or tools to do it right. Its not really an issue tho... Buy good barrels and use them for years...

worrying about how to renew them before you have even used one is silly.

[bcboyz86]

Well, I've had to fix my moms planter barrells before, and I just used a hammer and a chisel/screwdriver to knock the rings back into place and screwed them in. That would be the plan with my tiny one, except skip the screwing part. Do you think I wouldn't have to renew the inside for a long time? Like say 12 batches at about a month each? Just trying to look ahead a little bit as to what the cost will be 2 and 3 years from now to get barrells as opposed to just using sticks in jars... I kinda get the advantages and drawbacks of both, but was trying to get the biggest picture I could from start to finish before I jump in either way. :/

[rtalbigr]

its really easy to get them apart.

Putting them back together is a whole other thing.

Very few people would have the time or tools to do it right. Its not really an issue tho... Buy good barrels and use them for years...

worrying about how to renew them before you have even used one is silly.

Before ya take them apart ya gotta let them completely dry, the bands need to fall off. If ya don't the head will warp and you'll never get it back together.

Big R

[bcboyz86]

...that's the kind of stuff I was looking for! Things I wouldn't know or think of that would lead me to turning a barrell into oak staves for another project. Is there a place that has good info about barrells and care/useage?

[Rivver]

Age is the key!!! Even with smaller barrels, I don't think you can "over oak" a spirit. For a bourbon whiskey to be truly a bourbon whiskey it must be aged for a minimum of 2 years in a barrel. Have you ever compared a 2 year bourbon to a 10 year bourbon? I recently picked up a bottle of Evan Williams Single Barrel bourbon, and they age for 10 years in the barrel and it was bottled in September of 2012, so a very short bottling time before it hit the shelves. Of course the color is much darker and pronounced but the flavor is very smooth and mellow compared to a 2 year bourbon. So what would the difference be with a smaller barrel? Yes the two may intereact much faster, but the aging is not completed until it's complete!! Just my 52 cents worth.

[bcboyz86]

So if 53% ABV is about the target range for aging on oak, what's the lowest ABV that still works? Because from what I've read, the higher the % the more tannens(sp?) And woody flavor come out and overpower the carmely/vanillay goodness... So could you just age in a barrell at say 30-40% and not worry about it getting a raging woody flavor? Or does it need to be at 50% so after the Angel's share its right at that 40% sweet spot?

[rtalbigr]

So if 53% ABV is about the target range for aging on oak, what's the lowest ABV that still works? Because from what I've read, the higher the % the more tannens(sp?) And woody flavor come out and overpower the carmely/vanillay goodness... So could you just age in a barrell at say 30-40% and not worry about it getting a raging woody flavor? Or does it need to be at 50% so after the Angel's share its right at that 40% sweet spot?

I don't really think there is a target range. Forget about what you might have read that commercial distillers do because their goal is money.

Tannins aren't bad, in fact they play an important role in oak aging and with out them the aging process is not complete. If your spirits have a woody flavor it simply means you haven't aged long enough. The woodiness is from the cellulose and hemi-cellulose, which are the main components of wood. As the aging process progresses they (along with lignins) eventually are converted to wood sugars, vanillins, etc that give the oak aged product it's distinct flavor. Oak aging uses both the alcohols and the water in the process so actually the abv is somewhat less important in relation to time. 60-65% is a good range.

Big R

[bcboyz86]

So what about using small amounts of wood like say a small amount of chips and just leaving them in the likker jars for the year I will be aging it?That way they alcohol still gets time with the wood, but it won't be so overpowering. And just have seperate containers of chips. One pile of light toast, some med. toast, nother dark, and another charred. And add a little bit of each to the jar to resemble the different layers of toasting your trying to get with staves. That way your just allowing time to pass to convert the woods to sugars, and if in that year it does all the wood inside, at least it won't be a lot of woody flavor. I mean I'm talking like 6 or 8 quarter sized chips per pint of 60%ABV. Very minimal amount of wood. Do you think this would be good, or possibly use the wooden mason jar lid that someone was talking about on here? That also seemed like an awesome idea, I will deffinatly give that one a shot... Just cut out a 1/4 thick piece of oak into the same circle as the mason jar lid and use the screw ring to tighten it down airtight. It gives the alcohol wood to suck on, and it keeps possible uh.wanted plastics and metal away from the good stuff Inside:)

[Razor Still]

Well I am about to jump into the barrel business for the first time. After I run my current batch I will have a real good 5 gallons plus of 140 proof 72% Corn, 18% Rye, & 10% Barley to put into a new Gibbs Brothers 5 gallon barrel. I really like the taste of the un-aged spirit but have forced myself to leave this alone long enough to accumulate enough to fill a barrel. I will be sampling monthly to see what is going on with it and let y'all know what I discover. The knowledge of leaving it in glass after removing from the barrel to allow the aging process to continue is new to me but thanks for the info.

[Beavercreek]

would it be beneficial when aging in glass to pour the oaked spirit out of and then back into the glass jug to introduce oxygen? I'm currently oaking/aging in one gallon jugs.