Weighing the Legal Risks

[OCDistiller]

So I came to this forum with a simple barrel aging project I've been doing where I buy unaged whiskey and age it in small barrels for kicks. I've gotten a lot of great information from everyone and everyone's been encouraging me to build or buy my own still. I'm pretty close to convinced but just looked over some posts on this site about jail time and fines.
It sounds like the laws and penalties are pretty over the top and I'm suprised that everyone's so relaxed about it.
I assumed that law inforcement looked the other way unless you were selling it, but it sounds like even people distilling for their own use can get jail time and thousands in fines.
Is that really the risk everyone here is taking?

If that is the case, it seems like quite a trade off for a hobby and slightly better booze. And if it's that risky I wouldn't even be able to give any away to friends because then when they have someone over and break out the bottle I gave them then the secret's gonna be out right away that they have a friend who's distilling.

Also, I saw a few posts that said that it's illegal to buy or sell a still in the US and that someone got arrested for selling one of Ebay. If that's the case, how can I buy a still from a site like Brewhaus?

Please let me know what you think, what you know, and what you've heard. I'm not at all a worrier but man that would suck if I got raided, put in jail, had to pay thousands to lawyers and in fines, all just so I could make some bourbon for me to drink occasionally.

Thanks

[rubber duck]

Yep it's a risk, depending on where your at it's a big risk or a small risk. Depending on how muck you like to talk is a risk factor as well, so don't tell anyone.

As far as the feds go you can buy and sell one, it's state and local laws that will get your ass in a sling. Also why would you buy a brewshop still when there are so many better options out there?

Slightly better booze? I read a few of your post and of the stuff you mentioned I might use it to start my BBQ but I wouldn't drink it, I'm not kidding. The cheapest bottle of whiskey I can stand to drink is about 50 bucks and I can make a better one with a bag of corn, a beer keg, and a copper pipe.

So basically if your going to do it keep your mouth shut.

[OCDistiller]

Ok, so you can make much-much better stuff; I gotta say that's pretty exciting to imagine how much better it could be - but this news about home distillers getting busted for personal use, it's a real wet blanket.
Also, not being able to share what I make with anybody? That's more than half the fun. Who the hell wants to drink alone?
I'm bummed out. Going to bed.

[rubber duck]

Don't tell them you made it. I get a small bit of satisfaction just knowing.

[Dnderhead]

"I buy unaged whiskey and age it in small barrels for kicks"
I have no idea where you got the unaged whisky but if it did not come in the barrel you have already broke the law.
as its illegal to alter or repackage distilled alcohol.

[WalkingWolf]

srbutler75, we have all been to the "point" of which you're speaking. As you can tell there is no point but, instead, a general area of understanding and risk. You do not indicate your geographical location so I will use the US as a basis. In general, personal consumption is tolerated through much of the country. Exceptions are traditional moonshine strongholds. Johnny Law seems to have a hard-on for anybody making liquor over in Alabama, Georgia and to a lesser degree Mississippi and Arkansas. Oklahoma seems to get after the locals from time to time. In Louisiana its tolerated and quasi-celebrated in its own backwoods way. In any locale, if you start selling it they're coming after you. If kids get a'hold of it they're coming after you HARD.

The risk are inherent throughout the process and only you can decide if they're acceptable for you. As Rubber Duck mentioned, making "better booze" becomes a really small task once you learn the craft. It's not just about better booze but rather the accomplishment of getting it done, meeting like-minded folks and sharing ideas and gifting products to family and friends.

There is not a lot of "space" dedicated to the subject of "should I . . . " as it is understood that you are here and you have accepted. You can search it out as there are threads through time that have asked the same question. It sounds like you are the cautious (and a bit OCD) type and ultimately you may not find a comfort level in this hobby.

Wishing you the best.

[Bushman]

"I buy unaged whiskey and age it in small barrels for kicks"
I have no idea where you got the unaged whisky but if it did not come in the barrel you have already broke the law.
as its illegal to alter or repackage distilled alcohol.

Even infused alcohol....man that stuff is all over the Internet?

[Bushman]

Looks like they might legalize marijuana before legalizing alcohol for personal consumption in my state!

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... na23m.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[rubber duck]

"I buy unaged whiskey and age it in small barrels for kicks"
I have no idea where you got the unaged whisky but if it did not come in the barrel you have already broke the law.
as its illegal to alter or repackage distilled alcohol.

Even infused alcohol....man that stuff is all over the Internet?

I'm not sure on the federal side but the last time I checked you need a license for that in my state.

[mash rookie]

It is not illegal to manufacture or own a still. It is illegal to use one. I spoke with the TTB about my intentions to build stills for sale. I was told that they must be given a serial number “if the customer intends to use them” so they can obtain a license.

Under regulations in part 29 of title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, TTB has the right to require manufacturers of stills to give us the name and address of each customer. If we choose to impose this requirement, we inform the manufacturer of the stills by letter.

They state that they can compel manufacturers to provide information but it is not something they typically do. When pressed further I was told that I am not required to keep records for them or report sales to them. I will simply not keep information about my customers for their safety.

In my conversation with the TTB agent I was told that they view most of the people illegally distilling as egg heads that do it for the challenge just to prove they can. That's pretty spot on actually.

At the end of the day (in my opinion), They dont have intrest, time or money to chase down some egg head distilling in his garage with a home built contraption.
Yes there are a bunch of out laws on here. I dont think there are many criminals here by typical definition.

[OCDistiller]

Walkingwolf: "Cautious and OCD type?"

In response I'd like to inform you of what type you are but instead, since I'm new here I'll take it on the chin and amend your characterization. Try "Freewheelin and all over the goddam map for the last 37 years and trying to be a little more responsible these days."

I've always been the guy to believe that rules were more like suggestions and then be totally floored by the penalties.
For example, didn't pay three parking tickets for expired meters - leads to - $800.00 in penalties, car booted, license suspended. Couldn't accept not driving because of the GD parking tickets, drove anyway, got pulled over, arrested.

Anyway, I live in CT, a place without much of a tradition in moonshining, but going through all the work and expense and then not being able to share a bottle with a friend would bum me out. Even still, I'm probably going to do it.

The most all this worrying will probably do is cause me to choose a crappy little Mr. Distiller for the 'stealth factor' and then have to go through all the trouble just to be able to produce 375 ml of decent stuff at a time.

[DavidWatkins]

Well you pay your money and you rolls the dice.

In my occasional moments of self recrimination I have to admit that I'm no more morally right than any of the pot smokers out there who grow their own in the closet. We both are committing felonies to enjoy a chemical we love without having to worry what is in it. We both face big penalties if caught, and neither one of us can claim ignorance.

If I am ever busted, I have no one to blame but myself and I'll just have to face up to it. Jail time would really suck, but I don't loose too much sleep over it. The odds of the federal government looking to hard at me or kicking in my door for producing 50 gallons a year is so far out there that if I get busted it's because I screwed up.

Looking at drug war statistics, an awful lot of people are smoking dope and an awful lot of people are growing. So many that the government can't even stop domestic production let alone the imports. Heck, high school kids say pot is easier to get than alcohol. But the government is losing the drug war and they're losing prohibition of home distilling too. They occasionally make a big bust and splash some noise all over the news media but they're fighting a losing battle.

[OCDistiller]

I was just imagining myself in that scene from blow with Johnny Depp's character addressing the judge.

Depp: "In all honesty, i don't feel that what I've done is a crime. And I think it's illogical, and irresponsible for you to sentence me to prison. Because when you think about it, what did I really do? I crossed an imaginary line with a bunch of plants."

Judge: "Gosh, you know your concepts are really interesting." "Unfortunately for you, the line you crossed was real and the plants your brought with you were illegal, so your bail is set at twenty thousand dollars."

Alright, I'm done being a downer. Thanks for helping me process this stuff and all.

[DavidWatkins]

I'd also point out that your Mr. Distiller is the same felony with the same penalties as my keg, and someone else's 55gal drum, or one of the 200+gal backwoods stills that the TTB is actually worried about.

I produce for myself and my family. If I get busted for that, well that's a crying shame. I'd probably feel wronged by the law and that the punishment didn't fit my small scale crime, but in the end I knowingly made a choice to break that law even with the consequences.

[OCDistiller]

Yeah, but anyone who gets busted for anything feels wronged, and that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. So imagine me busted, with a really compelling story of how the system screwed me, and you can all sympathize and feel bad for me, but there I am, still screwed.

And yet, I think I'm gonna go for it.

Have a friend who's father is the police commisioner. We went out for drinks tonight and my friend mentioned that I wanted to make my own - well, his father's first response was clear, he got a little stern and looked at me a little hard, but then he smiled and said "I won't bust you, just as long as you give me some."

I took the hint from that, but I also took the warning.

[rubber duck]

srbutler75 you are a little OCD.

That's a good thing in this hobby, it means your going to be safe and smart and make some fantastic booze.


YAAAAA we've corrupted another one.

[frozenthunderbolt]

you could always move to new zealand - it's legal for personal consumption here

[OCDistiller]

Well, I wis!h I could get OCD on some laundry right about now. It's been piling up in my closet for two GD weeks!

[WalkingWolf]

srbutler75 you are a little OCD.

got my back RubbaDuk -- U da man

Been away for a day and miss a lot. Chill brutha. You ask'n questions then fire'n off six-shooters at every answer. It does seem that you've come to some conclusive area through your own transmigration of thought. If kicking you in the ass sets you off that bad then I guess we'll just keep kicking you in the ass to see if you'll really fit in. I'm still trying to sort out the parking tickets, expired meters, booted . . . . . thing

Then again, maybe you really do need this liquor you'll be making.

[OCDistiller]

Hey there Walkindoggy, you give it I'll give it right back. But maybe you've got a point about the six shooters. Like how you said that.

Figured you guys'd jump all over my ass about the police commissioner thing but nobody said a word. It's what everyone's been saying, "Don't tell anybody." Well, there's a great example of why, I told a guy I worked with that I was even thinking of doing it and he blurts it right out to the goddam police commissioner "he's going to make his own bourbon", then he's like "nah, it's cool man, don't worry" to me.

[WalkingWolf]

Hey there Walkindoggy, you give it I'll give it right back. But maybe you've got a point about the six shooters. Like how you said that.

Figured you guys'd jump all over my ass about the police commissioner thing but nobody said a word. It's what everyone's been saying, "Don't tell anybody." Well, there's a great example of why, I told a guy I worked with that I was even thinking of doing it and he blurts it right out to the goddam police commissioner "he's going to make his own bourbon", then he's like "nah, it's cool man, don't worry" to me.

You gonna be a'ight.

At this point in the game -- it's tween you and the po-com. I think you learned a lesson there. I kept a very low profile (and still do for the most part) as I didn't know how to "sort folks" with this type info. Only folks I knew from way-back I let on what was going on -- mostly cause I knew they knew shit I needed help with. Seems as you learn your craft you also learn how to talk around the subject to feel out folks and how they handle this type of info. You'll find your way.

[OCDistiller]

Yeah, I'm learning. In this case I learned not to tell knuckleheads. Lemme ask you though, do you share your stuff with friends or family or do you drink it all yourself?

[WalkingWolf]

do you share your stuff with friends or family or do you drink it all yourself?

My wife and I enjoy a cocktail a couple nights a week but not a big drinker. I gift it. One of the things I've noticed is folks tend to keep it to themselves better if you only give them a little bit initially. You ask them to keep it on the down low and just give them a 1/2 pint jelly jar the first time. It seems if they get a larger bottle initially they'll blab about it and want to show it off. If they like it they'll come looking for more and, I guess, they figure if they open their mouth they won't be kept in the loop. You'll know pretty quick if they blabbed or not. After a couple of samplers their excitement will have dimmed a bit as well. I don't just give out thimblefuls though. For the most part folks that are in the loop get gifted by the 1/5. One two occasions I sent out gallon jugs and one still had the oak. The one with the oak went to out of state kinfolk in for a reunion. That old man cradled that jug like a newborn baby -- he looked like a kid on Christmas morning. The other with my B-I-L out of state. You'll find a comfort zone. Let this part of the process develop real slow. A year in you'll look back and be kind of surprised. One other point. Not all my friends know about this hobby. There are folks I consider good friends that I won't tell about this -- just the wrong personality type for this type info IMO. Best of luck.

[OCDistiller]

That sounds like a good way to do it. I'm looking at the short, fat 375 ml bottles from Tuthilltown Spririts that might do the trick. 2.50 each is a pretty good price too.
Might even get fancy and dip the tops in wax.

[Maritimer]

The local brew shops here in the Canadian Maritimes have all sorts of distilling supplies: alcoholometers, activated carbon, turbo yeasts, etc. One shop has over 10 feet of essenses from all over the world. In fact, one brand of essenses is made right here in Nova Scotia. When you mention distilling to a local, they often know someone with a still. I'm just wondering what it's like in the States. Do the brew shops sell the supplies you need or do you have to procure them elsewhere?

M

[Durace11]

All the homebrew shops that I have been to do not have equipment specific to distilling. They have brewing equipment which can also be used for distilling but I have never seen distilling specific equipment on the shelves. Of course, that is my specific town which has about 4-5 homebrew shops within 50 square miles.

I have heard people at the check out counter asking about distilling to the guy working the register but for the most part it's kept under the radar.

As far as sharing and gifting, I have shared some of my stuff with a small group from my homebrew club that I trust and all the people I share with are keen to keep it private so I'll keep sharing it around. I have gifted some to friends without saying it was homemade. I just say it is something special for someone special, nothing else. Once they get a taste they just shake my hand and enjoy it.

This is where mixers are great, you can always mix drinks for friends and they will have no idea it was home made, just that they got a damn fine drink at your place. That's when you tell them you bring out the "good" stuff for friends like them!

[Maritimer]

Holy Cow! On weekends the local brew house expert on distilling is at home with his family. You have to come on a weekday. I used to live in Quebec, where my usual purchase was Alcool. That's French for Alcohol, but we always called it Al-Cool. I must say that my prouct so far, although I've achieved azeoptrope, is far from tasteless. Oh for the real Alcool!

M

[Prairiepiss]

My two local shops don't have equipment out and about. And I haven't asked if they have it hidden. They do have essences, turbo yeast, distillers yeast, carbon, and alcohol meters all on the shelves. I was asked by one of them the other day. Why are you getting this? I was getting some beer supplies. I said to make beer. He said that's not what you normally make is it? I asked what's that suppose to mean? He said I thought you made harder stuff? I've never bought any of the distiller specific stuff from them. Just mainly wine and beer supplies. I was kinda shocked.

[Maritimer]

I moved from Montreal to rural Nova Scotia when I retired. My screen name is totally ironic, BTW. I'm really From Away. Like Colonel Saunders moving to Vermont and calling himself Yankee. In the spring my neighbour's house burned down. When I went to buy some local eggs, 15 km away, the farmer told me about my neighbour's insurance and his kids. Nothing's secret around here!

M

[OCDistiller]

Yeah, the only thing people love more than hearing a good secret is sharing it.
Was just talking to my Dad today. He lives about 45 min away in the country. Anyway, was telling him about all this and asked if he was interested in doing a little father and son thing with a proper-sized still. His next door neighbor's a cop. They're all pretty close - not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Funny how things work. I can either do it here in my little apartment (not ideal), or out there in the country with all the land he's got (ideal) but with a cop for a neighbor (maybe not ideal).