flute/plated column question.

[ohyeahyeah]

I notice when researching plated columns that some Carl stills sometimes mount the column right on the boiler like a regular flute build while other times use a swan neck or straight copper head with site glass and then run an output to the bottom of the column which is running parrell next to the boiler. I get that they build to customer spec.
My question would be does anyone know if the swan neck with the site glass have a bubble plate in it? Either way is there any advantage to this? Seems like it would take more heat to run it side mounted as you would be getting less heat in your column through conduction.
What could be the advantages to the "bubble ball" as opposed to just adding another plate to the column itself?
Im building a 4" stainless flute with all copper internals based on OD's second build with the 2" bubble caps.

[emptyglass]

Either way is there any advantage to this? Seems like it would take more heat to run it side mounted as you would be getting less heat in your column through conduction.

I believe they do this so it can be run as a pot still (by bypassing the column) or a plated column still. They are usually a lab or boutique still, from what I've seen, I havn't seen a full size one done like that (yet...)
They apparently get enough heat, even when mounted like you describe. Sort of like a thumper does I guess.

The rest I'm not sure on.

[LWTCS]

The side column can also be a solution for limited ceiling height. Also maintenance may also be easier. And lastly,,,perhaps portability?

[emptyglass]

The side column can also be a solution for limited ceiling height.

Its taking every bit of my gumption to hold back here.

I don't think I can hold it back.

ooh its coming out by itself. I cant control the force anymore.

Have you fixed that bloody hole yet Larry?

Sorry to sound like the mrs.

Edit, sorry, the force sidetracked me from the OP's question. But I want to know if the hole is still there.

[LWTCS]

Its taking every bit of my gumption to hold back here.

Spit my coffee everywhere.

I didn't fix it yet....I might need it!

[emptyglass]

no worries mate, I can really respect a bloke that has an eye on the future.
NFR. (no fixing required!)

[ohyeahyeah]

Thanks for the replies.

The ones i have seen are all pics on the Carl stills site of artisian pot stills. My concern was height as well as being a stainless column i am wondering if a large/short copper column would be beneficial for flavor.
Also still wondering why a site glass in the short fat column?
My idea was to either find a cut off length of 8"copper pipe or roll a sheet(a 24" sheet comes up a little short but might work if brazed to the inside of the ferrel instead of the outside). Then have a 3/4" take off to the column as well as a drain back to the boiler. More then anything i like the idea of 8" tri-clover connection to my milk can.

[Backflush]

I remember seeing a sketch of that shorter tube with a sight glass on one of the manufacturer sites. It did show that there was a single plate with a downcommer that extended down into the wash thou I think a J tube would be fine. I think it is only there to increase reflux in a shorter tube so it acts more like a taller tube with more reflux.

[myles]

I am actually going down this route with my current builds. Here is a layout of part of the proposed new still room.



The 100 litre keg is raised on a plinth as there is a drain in the bottom of it. It will be getting the copper onion and the big Friedrichs condenser, so that I can use it as a basic pot still. There is going to be a parot after the valve.

When I wish to use the Thump Tower that valve is shut, as is the coolant supply to the Friedrich, so it will just act as a vapour path. I am probably going to use the spiraled liebig as the product condenser on the Thump Tower. The Thump Tower is also on a stand as it has its own drain. There is also an overflow (not shown) from the base chamber back into the boiler - connected in via that neck between the keg and the onion.

It just seemed sensible to me to build in an alternative product take off point, between the boiler and the offset column.

[mash rookie]

I notice when researching plated columns that some Carl stills sometimes mount the column right on the boiler like a regular flute build while other times use a swan neck or straight copper head with site glass and then run an output to the bottom of the column which is running parrell next to the boiler. I get that they build to customer spec.
My question would be does anyone know if the swan neck with the site glass have a bubble plate in it? Either way is there any advantage to this? Seems like it would take more heat to run it side mounted as you would be getting less heat in your column through conduction.
What could be the advantages to the "bubble ball" as opposed to just adding another plate to the column itself?
Im building a 4" stainless flute with all copper internals based on OD's second build with the 2" bubble caps.

I had a pretty close look at a Christen Carl a year ago. They are a beautiful bubble cap still designed for brandies. There is very little heat loss and really no disadvantage having a column on the side of the boiler. Their onion ball serves as a vapor equalization chamber. I dont think there is a bubble cap in it. They introduce fresh vapor above the first plate and tails return to the boiler below the first plate. There is height advantage but I am not sure that is the only reason they do it. The column must still be high enough for tails to drain into the boiler above liquid line. (I think) I am guessing that it may be as simple as allowing the tails return drain to function separately of fresh vapor.

[Prairiepiss]

The problem is. These companies build so many different configurations. They may all look similar on the outside. But what is on the inside may be different. Depending on how the user orders it. Usually they are pretty much all of the same design. But you may come across one or three that are different.

Just going by pictures I have seen. I have seen some like the one MR posted. That had what looked like a bubble plate of some sort in the onion. I've also seen where a botanical basket was Hung in there. Some have a 3 way valve on the vapor path to the column. That will divert it straight to the condenser. Some don't. Some have a second column. All depends on what the customer wants to make with it. And how they want to do it. Some may want to make one product with that still. So they buy it to run just it. Or they may want to use one still to make a variety of products. So they get it so they can configured it differently to make different products.

MR is right about the column drains. It does need to have one. The easiest way as he described it. But some do use pumps for this. So the column bottom doesn't need to be so high. Gets them a little more headroom.

Now that I've lost you with my ranting.

My findings of using a bubble ball above the boiler is it makes a sort of temp barrier. Bringing down the column operating temps. This helps with the separation. The difference I see in adding a bubbleball and adding a plate. Depends on the liquid level. If the liquid levels were the same between the bubble ball and the added plate. There wouldn't be much advantage. That's with the column on top of the bubblecap ball. The advantage would come from making the liquid level in the bubble ball deeper then what could be done with an added plate.

This is really just my theory with some of my findings from running a bubble ball mixed in. So take it as you will. I haven't done anything with a stand alone column. I've been interested in doing so. But I haven't so I won't touch on that.

You may take the time to search out LWTCS's posts about his inline thumper. Lots of good info that goes right along these vary lines.

[emptyglass]

I reckon the onion, weather or not it has a plate has an added funtion of regulating the vapor speed somewhat.
It might grab a bit more abv with a plate installed, but I think its benifits are a bit more sublime.

Thats my theory, and I'm sticking to it. So there...
Well, more of a guess than a theory.

[Dnderhead]

These are what iv read about the "onion" the first makes more sense to me.
(1) the intentions of the "onion" was a expansion chamber so if the still puked, the "onion" gave the vapors a place to pass.(2)iv also seen some say that originally they were gin stills and that was where the herbs was placed but that does not make sense to me as it whould be pretty hard job of placing anything in there.
as for reflux from the "onion" very little if any reflux takes place there .many of the stills was tall and tapered some several stories.furnace in the basement,boilers on the first floor, and the swan neck,line arm on the second or third floor.now if you want to make your still ethnic then take your still and beat the crap out of it making dents.as some claim each dent has a influence on the out come of the final product.
now in my opinion ,most do not make the riser/line arm big enough,you do not want high vapor speed you want is slow
this gives more time for vapor separation or to do what ever it going to do.

[mash rookie]

These are what iv read about the "onion" the first makes more sense to me.
(1) the intentions of the "onion" was a expansion chamber so if the still puked, the "onion" gave the vapors a place to pass.(2)iv also seen some say that originally they were gin stills and that was where the herbs was placed but that does not make sense to me as it whould be pretty hard job of placing anything in there.
as for reflux from the "onion" very little if any reflux takes place there .many of the stills was tall and tapered some several stories.furnace in the basement,boilers on the first floor, and the swan neck,line arm on the second or third floor.now if you want to make your still ethnic then take your still and beat the crap out of it making dents.as some claim each dent has a influence on the out come of the final product.
now in my opinion ,most do not make the riser/line arm big enough,you do not want high vapor speed you want is slow
this gives more time for vapor separation or to do what ever it going to do.

That is what I was told. The onion is an expansion chamber or "vapor equalization chamber" where the vapor would slow and become more homogenous before entering the column. At least that is what the manufacturer tells there customers. How much affect does it have? Who knows? It is really cool looking!

[DFitz]

I am actually going down this route with my current builds. Here is a layout of part of the proposed new still room.



The 100 litre keg is raised on a plinth as there is a drain in the bottom of it. It will be getting the copper onion and the big Friedrichs condenser, so that I can use it as a basic pot still. There is going to be a parot after the valve.

When I wish to use the Thump Tower that valve is shut, as is the coolant supply to the Friedrich, so it will just act as a vapour path. I am probably going to use the spiraled liebig as the product condenser on the Thump Tower. The Thump Tower is also on a stand as it has its own drain. There is also an overflow (not shown) from the base chamber back into the boiler - connected in via that neck between the keg and the onion.

It just seemed sensible to me to build in an alternative product take off point, between the boiler and the offset column.

So let me ask if I may. In this design, can the tower also be designed for a reflux tower if the components were staged for replacement sake. Say, rather than a thumper tower, build a stage as a straight tower with a reflux head? I'm thinking a union on the towers intake line would mean one could just drop in a longer tube and flip it over or maybe add a return.

[myles]

Did you mean can you build a modular tower so you can fit as many sections as you like. Absolutely.

I have a connector on the input to the 1st thumper so it can be removed from the pot still if required. In addition, I have external drains to disable any combination of thump chambers, but still leave them physically in situ.

I can see myself disabeling thumper sections, but I will probably leave them all connected unless it needs a major clean.

[DFitz]

Loads of possibilities there I reckon.... So much copper, so little time....

[jumpin jellybean]

this is what im now sourcing parts for

my question is, can the column be fed below the first plate liquid level or
doe's it have to be above?
Myles have you started building this yet?

[Prairiepiss]

The way you have it drawn. The first plate won't do anything. And will pretty much be a wasted plate. With no vapors rising through it. It won't do anything. Wouldn't even hold liquid. So the vapor input should be below the first plate. Just like it would be if it was sitting on top of the boiler.

[mash rookie]

The way you have it drawn. The first plate won't do anything. And will pretty much be a wasted plate. With no vapors rising through it. It won't do anything. Wouldn't even hold liquid. So the vapor input should be below the first plate. Just like it would be if it was sitting on top of the boiler.

Actually what he has drawn is the exact vapor path design of the Christen Carl in the picture I posted on the previous page. A bubble cap design that introduces vapor above the first plate and returns tails to the boiler from the first plate. An interesting concept from a proven company.

[Prairiepiss]

So what is the use of the first plate if the vapor is introduced above it? If vapor isn't bubbling through the liquid on the plate. I see no use for it to be there. If its only use is to collection and return liquid to the boiler. The bottom of the column can do that. Unless there is something I am missing?

Now if added steam was introduced to the bottom of the column under the fist plate? I could see it mite be useful.

I would like to see an actual vapor diagram of that still. Or a better angled picture. As big as that pipe going in the bottom of the column. I'm wondering if its not a steam pipe? You wouldn't need a drain that big for a still that size? Would you?

[Prairiepiss]

If you look at this Christen Carl still. It looks as though steam is plumbed to the bottom of the column from the boiler steam jacket. And the vapors from the boiler dump in above the first plate. That would explain why they are set up as they are.

But on the hobby scale unless you are running a steam system. This wouldn't do much of anything for you. Again unless I am missing something? Help me understand if I am?

[Durace11]

Thinking out loud here, the vapor with the lighter elements (fores/heads/hearts) floats up while the tails and water with the heavier elements (tails) goes down into the catch basin below?

[Prairiepiss]

Thinking out loud here, the vapor with the lighter elements (fores/heads/hearts) floats up while the tails and water with the heavier elements (tails) goes down into the catch basin below?

Yes. But if the vapor has nowhere to go down to. It won't. And what good would vapor going backwards through a plate be good for. Even if it was a bubblecap plate. It would just push the liquid through the plate to what ever is below it.

[Jimbo]

I have a question,... studying that first Christian Carl picture, it looks like the plates in the column are on a hinge, with a handle outside to open or close the plate? yes? If so, that is presumably done to adjust the purity of whatever they are after? Has anyone done this and can you speak to the results? Im still sketching and erasing furiously here as I dial in my reflux design. every time I think I have it, I find something else really cool to incorporate

[Durace11]

Yes it is and yes that's what it does. Not sure if anyone here has done it on a hobby scale but I've seen butterfly valves that could be perfed to use in this manner. On the hobby scale it would probably be easier to have a removable section for different runs, on a commercial scale they don't want to have to disassemble a giant still just to remove a few plates so it makes more sense to have adjustable plates.

[myles]

Actually that is wrong.

I am sure on the Carl stills the lever just lifts up 1 of the bubble caps. The other option is that it lifts a plug on the plate. However, I would be amazed if it actually tilted a plate. No way could you re-establish the plate to column seal with that method.

[Prairiepiss]

I'm not sure which pic your talking about? The only thing I see is the plate drains for the CIP.
OD did some stuff with plate drains and such. Maybe I'm just not seeing what you all are talking about?

[Jimbo]

My vote is with Myles. A plug would render the plate useless, a wide open vapor and liquid path. Seems sensible.

[Prairiepiss]

Oh. Damn eyesight. +1 plate drain. Either a plug or adjustable downcomer configuration.