phase angle controller

[shinebob]

Is it better to build a phase angle controller using the psr - 25 , pot and heat sink or should i just buy one from newark.com ( UNITED AUTOMATION - QVR/S-RFI 17 - CONTROLLER, PHASE ANGLE, 25A, 230V, 60HZ ). To buy one is also cheaper than building, i just want to make sure i am getting the same product (whether i buy a complete unit or build one). My electrical knowledge is limited. thanks

[mrrb]

I think this the 1 you are talking about.
http://www.newark.com/united-automation ... ntrol_None
Pretty expensive at $82 plus shipping, but it is the same as building one.
This post has the parts links for a 40 amp. Total cost is about $20 plus shipping, you just need a box to mount it in.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=34543

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

.

That controller is good to a max of 17 amps continuous, provided that it has an optional heatsink efficient enough(see their technical data sheet for more info) attached to it. Depends on the element that you want to drive, @230volts you will need 24 amps to run a 5500w/230v element. 17 amps @ 230 volts = 3910 watts

Just so you know, I only know enough about electrical/electronic stuff to get myself in trouble. If I am correct in my assumptions, if you try to run a 230v element that is rated over 3910w, you will burn this controller up.

Any electrical geniuses want to chime in to affirm my assumptions?

.

[bellybuster]

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-SSR-40VA-24 ... B009ISAM9E

would this not be a good (and cheap) substitute as the PSR25?

[midcarolina]

Yep.... same thing other than it's rated for 40 Amps.......Coarse I have no idea if it is cheap for a reason.......like a lot of cheap things

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

.

I just order 2 of the 40 amp ones, with the heat sink, from Uxcell through Amazon. The listing calls them Amico units as well, but the pic shows a different mfg., I guess we'll see when they get here.
>>>>Amico SSR-40<<<<

We'll see if they're any good in 6 weeks or so, plus build time.

They are so cheap because of being made in China, I suppose. If they work, or even show up at my door, remains to be seen.

.

[bellybuster]

The others are probably made in china as well.

[Odessit]

All devices of this type have a common drawback. Output voltage changes with change input voltage. Standard instability of line voltage is 10%, therefore the standard error of the heating power will be about 20%.

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

.....Standard instability of line voltage is 10%, therefore the standard error of the heating power will be about 20%.....

The US standard ANSI C84 maintains that the service voltage(voltage supplied outside your place on the pole or vault) is to be regulated at +/-5%, subject to occasional variances beyond their control. A range of 10%. How does that translate to a 20% variance in heating power? Just curious.

Also, wouldn't the addition of an in-line voltage meter and ammeter to the controller circuit allow for on the fly corrections via the pot resistor?

[goinbroke2]

......ok....so if I order this, http://www.amazon.com/Amico-SSR-40VA-24 ... B009ISAM9E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
then all I need is a 500 ohm potentiometer to control it??

I'm running a 4500w 220v heating element in a 58L keg.


I've read the thread about building a variac or triac or whatever...all 10,000 pages! But, it might as well be explaining string theory..I'm lost.

So, in real simple terms, get this relay (ssr) and wire a knob (potentiometer) to it and I can power my element???

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

....So, in real simple terms, get this relay (ssr) and wire a knob (potentiometer) to it and I can power my element??? ....

You need a heat sink and contact paste, Wiring and plug ends, too. ....and a box to put it all in, so you don't frizz up your hair by accident!

[Odessit]

How does that translate to a 20% variance in heating power? Just curious.

It's simple.
Power is proportional to the square of the voltage. The change of voltage from 90 to 110% of the nominal, gives change of heating from 81% to 121%.
So, if Voltage corresponds to US standard ANSI 84, maximum heating is different from a minimum value as 1.5 times.

Also, wouldn't the addition of an in-line voltage meter and ammeter to the controller circuit allow for on the fly corrections via the pot resistor?

This is not as easy as it might seem.
The output voltage of the regulator is of the form torn pieces of a sine wave.
Ordinary voltmeter can not correctly measure the voltage of this form.
True rms voltmeter needed for correctly measure this voltage.

To maintain a stable heating needs another power regulator. Need a stabilizing controller that supports the same output rms voltage, regardless of fluctuations in the supply voltage.

[midcarolina]

All of that sounds very impressive....... and all....... but completely useless info for what we do.

In a packed column we are heating up and cutting back to get the coulumn to equalize....... besides dont think many of us are gonna buy a 5,000.00 dollar UPS to clean the power up.....

Bottom line is that setup is plenty stable enough for our purposes.........Just sayin

[Odessit]

Why $ 5000? I bought a high-precision digital power control, and the problem was resolved. He gives true rms voltage, which I chose, regardless of fluctuations of the supply voltage. $ 18.

Power controller RM - 2 is designed to support the load customer given a effective (RMS) value AC voltage with a frequency of 50 Hz.
SPECIFICATIONS
1. Input voltage range for which the device keeps working from 40 to 400 volts.
2. The range of a voltage supplied to the load from 35 to 255 volts.
3. Stability to maintain a given voltage of plus or minus 1 volt.
4. The device can control any triac (TRIAC) with a current control electrode to 150 mA

Full datasheet (in Russian) here.

That is controller based on this device.

[goinbroke2]

....So, in real simple terms, get this relay (ssr) and wire a knob (potentiometer) to it and I can power my element??? ....

You need a heat sink and contact paste, Wiring and plug ends, too. ....and a box to put it all in, so you don't frizz up your hair by accident!

THANK YOU! (a simple direct answer )

The actual fabricating of stuff is no problem, just the electrical side (although I can wire a house etc, basic electric's are simple enough)
One point I'd like to make though is that I won't be using a voltmeter or amp guage or light to show when it's on or any other unncessary "fluff". I'll crank it wide open, then when the boiling chips rattle dial it back a bit, then find the sweet spot for stripping and spirit runs. A mark on the dial means more to me than an actual "accurate instrument reading", it's ends up to "turn the dial here for stripping or there for spirit run".

I'm a "KISS" thinking kind of guy.

[striker85]

A question related to this..

If you use that 220v relay and only run a 110v line into it, how would you calculate output? If I go buy a range element for a 220v stove, how do I know what wattage is being output?

[mrrb]

The potentiometer has to be at least 560k ohms, not 500 ohms. it also needs to have a 500 ohm resister in series with it. The specs for that ssr are 470 ohms to 560k ohms.
Also, a voltmeter makes it easy to record what setting you are using.

......ok....so if I order this, http://www.amazon.com/Amico-SSR-40VA-24 ... B009ISAM9E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
then all I need is a 500 ohm potentiometer to control it??

I'm running a 4500w 220v heating element in a 58L keg.


I've read the thread about building a variac or triac or whatever...all 10,000 pages! But, it might as well be explaining string theory..I'm lost.

So, in real simple terms, get this relay (ssr) and wire a knob (potentiometer) to it and I can power my element???

[goinbroke2]

AAAHHH!!!! starting to add stuff!!!

Ok, that's too easy, put a 500 ohm resistor in series with a 600+ ohm potentiometer, got it....why does it need a resistor?

First day back to work tomorrow after 3 weeks off, probably crazy busy but I'll start calling the local electronic's shops. (course last time I asked one of them for a price on a triac or variac they looked at me like I had two heads.

I'll make a list and price it out. Thanks for the help.

[bellybuster]

ok, once again I am confused...happens allot lately.
I understood the input resistance is a range, therefore any linear pot with a max resistance of between 470k and 560k would suffice, adding a 500k resister in series would give you 500k at zero and double that when the pot is turned to max ????? the question marks mean I'm not sure.

[bellybuster]

anyone able to weigh in on this?

[mrrb]

You guy are both confusing the resistance values. The specs of the ssr are 470 ohms to 560k ohms.
The resister needs to be 470 ohms, a 500 ohm resister will work fine. If there is a k ( ie 560k), it means times 1000.
The potentiometer needs to be at least 560,000 ohms. The resister is there only because the ssr specs state that the resistance should not go lower than 470 ohms. That way, if you turn the pot all the way to zero ohms, there will still be 470 ohms on the terminals.

[bellybuster]

Ahhh, got it, I missed the lack of a K on the 470. Silly me.
Thanks for the clarification.

[goinbroke2]

So, I called the two local electronic distributors in the area.
One is still confirming they can even source the 40A SSR for me. The second said they can get a 40A SSR in 3-4 days, the cost is $80.00!
This is the only info they would give me;
Manufacturer Crydom
Part # A4840
All spec's the same as the Amico one.

Should I just order the one from Amazon and be done of it? (not knowing postage or "extra" charges)
Or should I buy local and be able to hold it in my hand before laying out cash? I'll go local for the rest of the stuff I need anyway.

[bellybuster]

$80 is insanely priced. I wouldn't put that much cash out on a SSR of any type.
You also need to be sure it is a resistance input, that part number comes up as a voltage input. It is also $20 less at Allied Electronics.

[goinbroke2]

You know, I put 250 chev rocker arms on a 300 ford one time because the fords ratio was 1.6 and the chev was 1.7. Both had 3/8" rocker studs and it was a cheap way to add lift and duration to a stock cammed 300. I did it because I know the ins and outs of engines and know what and how to modify them. 4bbl carb and headers with the bigger arms and the old truck would out pull a small block.

This however....I can't do the same because I just don't know electronic's.
So, I'll order the one from Amazon and get the potentiometer and resistor from the local store.

Thanks for all the help!

[shawn2974]

Hi Guys, i been following the tread for a long time now and chiming in everyy once and a while. I have a question and i need a straight forward answer as im in the mist of making a order for my still that want cost me anything so time is limited guys. I been reading on element controllers and i know u guys like to build all ur equipment and so do I. I have 13 gal boiler that i plan on putting 10-11 gal of wash in and im running a 3'' ss slant plate column. I have 2-3500 watt heater elements.....1 ill be able to unplug when water gets to correct temp the other i wanna regulate power input. Im gonna order the UNITED AUTOMATION-QVR/S-RFI 17 PHASE ANGLE CONTROLLER. i KNOW ITS PRICEY but its a freeby. My question is WILL THIS WORK ?

[shawn2974]

And if this want work tell me exactly what i need to buy and how to wire it up. I built the entire still from ground up without a problem till i get to the electrical part then things got really cloudy. I dont understand what all those things do as for as hoe they work

[sambedded]

I have 2-3500 watt heater elements.....1 ill be able to unplug when water gets to correct temp the other i wanna regulate power input. Im gonna order the UNITED AUTOMATION-QVR/S-RFI 17 PHASE ANGLE CONTROLLER. i KNOW ITS PRICEY but its a freeby. My question is WILL THIS WORK ?

As Is this controller gives you only 10A max. That is 2400watts at 240 V. For 3500watts you need bigger heatsink or/and a fan.

[bellybuster]

do you plan on running 220 or 110?

[shawn2974]

Doesnt matter i have both readily available. The QVR/s controller says 17amp