American Oak ?

[Cmdte]

I've tried aging UJSSM with Red Oak, Cherry Wood and Maple with great results, I've tried toasted and charred all combinations with great results.
Just for comparison I ordered half a barrel red wine Amer Oak, I just got it and I was wondering if its the real deal, anyone could tell?

[HolyBear]

That looks like white oak to me... so you've used red oak? Did it not have too much tannins in it?

[Cmdte]

That looks like white oak to me... so you've used red oak? Did it not have too much tannins in it?

Is white Oak the same as American Oak ?

The Red Oak wood I've used hasnt been used for barrels. Btw, personally I rather age ujssm with Red Oak not toasted or charred, the flavors I get are more refine with natural wood.

[Fastill]

That looks like white oak to me... so you've used red oak? Did it not have too much tannins in it?

Way too many species of red oak to say all are bad, I have had great results from the tall, straight grain red oak in my area, but the scrub oak smells like old garbage when cutting or burning it, so that one I never tried.

[Cmdte]

That looks like white oak to me... so you've used red oak? Did it not have too much tannins in it?

Way too many species of red oak to say all are bad, I have had great results from the tall, straight grain red oak in my area, but the scrub oak smells like old garbage when cutting or burning it, so that one I never tried.

I dont know what kind of Red Oak it is, but out of the 3 kinds of wood I've tried (maple, cherry), RO has beed the best for me, cant wait to try White Oak afaik, its the holly grail for aging around here

[Bushman]

White Oak has a tighter grain structure than Red Oak. I'm not an expert on trees but the use of White Oak over Red Oak for barrel making may have something to do with the grain structure and the amount of tannic acid found in each tree. Wacabi is correct for the most part red oak imparts more tannins thus is usually more bitter.

[Dnderhead]

" and the amount of tannic acid found in each tree"
thats about all you git form red oak.
tyloses is what gives the "oak flavors" is missing.

[Cmdte]

White Oak has a tighter grain structure than Red Oak. I'm not an expert on trees but the use of White Oak over Red Oak for barrel making may have something to do with the grain structure and the amount of tannic acid found in each tree. Wacabi is correct for the most part red oak imparts more tannins thus is usually more bitter.

You're defenatelly right, the grains looks tighter on the White Oak, I'll post a pic of th Red Oak later maybe.

[Cmdte]

So American and White Oak is the same?

[Dnderhead]

never heard of it,if speaking of barrels then yes it will be "American" oak rather than french etc. nothing other is used for barrels but certain spices .
so if its a "American oak" barrel ,then they are referring to white oak.
but if something other like a chair/table then it can be most any kind of oak.

[Cmdte]

never heard of it,if speaking of barrels then yes it will be "American" oak rather than french etc. nothing other is used for barrels but certain spices .
so if its a "American oak" barrel ,then they are referring to white oak.
but if something other like a chair/table then it can be most any kind of oak.

Hmmm, the guy I bought the half barrel from said he has French And American Oak barrels to choose from :/

[Washashore]

Then yes, he is referring to white oak.

[Bushman]

never heard of it,if speaking of barrels then yes it will be "American" oak rather than french etc. nothing other is used for barrels but certain spices .
so if its a "American oak" barrel ,then they are referring to white oak.
but if something other like a chair/table then it can be most any kind of oak.

Hmmm, the guy I bought the half barrel from said he has French And American Oak barrels to choose from :/

American oak is more intensely flavored than French oak with more sweet and vanilla overtones. the reason for this is American oak has two to four times as many lactones. I've been to wineries that use both and the wine definitely has a totally different taste to it.

[beelah]

just a question...what did you pay for that oak, including shipping?

[Cmdte]

never heard of it,if speaking of barrels then yes it will be "American" oak rather than french etc. nothing other is used for barrels but certain spices .
so if its a "American oak" barrel ,then they are referring to white oak.
but if something other like a chair/table then it can be most any kind of oak.

Hmmm, the guy I bought the half barrel from said he has French And American Oak barrels to choose from :/

American oak is more intensely flavored than French oak with more sweet and vanilla overtones. the reason for this is American oak has two to four times as many lactones. I've been to wineries that use both and the wine definitely has a totally different taste to it.

People really know their stuff huh ? Yeah, that I've seen, there are some fine wines out there that are being aged not only on White/American Oak but other kinds as well like French Oak and so on. I remember I've red somewhere that some wineries are even using Hungarian Oak because of the lower cost.

[Cmdte]

just a question...what did you pay for that oak, including shipping?

I paid $80 + $15 S&H.

[rtalbigr]

You can distinguish red oak from white by looking at the end grain with a 10x magnifying glass. Look at the pores; the pores in the white oak will be blocked by the tyloses while they will be open in the red oak. Another way is to take a thin end grain cut. You can blow through the red oak cut but not the white oak.

Big R

[Cmdte]

You can distinguish red oak from white by looking at the end grain with a 10x magnifying glass. Look at the pores; the pores in the white oak will be blocked by the tyloses while they will be open in the red oak. Another way is to take a thin end grain cut. You can blow through the red oak cut but not the white oak.

Big R

Cool, like I said, "people really know their stuff" , I'll give it try and see if Im able to notice to pores. Thanks.

[Cmdte]

You can distinguish red oak from white by looking at the end grain with a 10x magnifying glass. Look at the pores; the pores in the white oak will be blocked by the tyloses while they will be open in the red oak. Another way is to take a thin end grain cut. You can blow through the red oak cut but not the white oak.

Big R

Cool, like I said, "people really know their stuff" , I'll give it a try and see if Im able to notice to pores. Thanks.

[Steep-n-Rocky]

Tell us more about your experience with red oak. The conventional wisdom has been that red oak is bad due to tannins but I can kind of see tannins adding a spiciness if not overdone.

[Cmdte]

Tell us more about your experience with red oak. The conventional wisdom has been that red oak is bad due to tannins but I can kind of see tannins adding a spiciness if not overdone.

I got a couple of gallons of ujssm (60% corn and 40% malt) double distilled, after I did my cuts, but since Im a newbie I went of course with my personal taste and smell.
I aged the product at 65% on both toasted or/and charred Red Oak only for 3 weeks, enough to get the wet dog smell off it.
I added filtered water to get it about 38 to 40% and invited some friends over, when they arrived I had like 15 shooter glasses on the table marked with a sharpy at the bottom and asked them which one they liked the most, they chose the Red Oak (Natural, toasted, charred) over Maple and Cherry, actually the majority went with natural wood aging and not toasted or charred with Red Oak.

2 of the shooters glasses had J. W. Red label and the other Valentines, 3 guys said the JD had smother taste, smell was sweeter but the smell from Red Oak was smoother, refined (same as I did). Valentines, 3 guys said Red Oak had better smell, but the taste was not.

I was very surprised , how come, it only had been aging for 3 weeks ? WTF ?

I guess I have a long way learning on how to make cuts.

Here's a pic, Red Natural Oak, 3 weeks

[Steep-n-Rocky]

Thank you, that is very interesting! I might have to try aging white dog on natural red oak too. I would have never guessed that it would be a preferred taste. I may start by adding a mixing some natural red oak with toasted and charred white oak. Short of barrel aging for years, perhaps this is a way to gain a little more complexity?

[smokindave]

This is an interesting thread. I have tried aging sweetfeed and wheat germ on toasted oak strips and chips. White oak only. After 2 to 3 weeks, all I get is a real woody taste. It is definitely sweeter, and more flavorful, but the wood undertones are overpowering.

I was hoping this would go away after some more aging, but it has been almost 2 months, and it is still very woody.

Anyone have any thoughts? I am thinking that my wood just was not seasoned enough yet, and had too many tannins to start with.

SmokinDave

[rtalbigr]

This is an interesting thread. I have tried aging sweetfeed and wheat germ on toasted oak strips and chips. White oak only. After 2 to 3 weeks, all I get is a real woody taste. It is definitely sweeter, and more flavorful, but the wood undertones are overpowering.

I was hoping this would go away after some more aging, but it has been almost 2 months, and it is still very woody.

Anyone have any thoughts? I am thinking that my wood just was not seasoned enough yet, and had too many tannins to start with.

SmokinDave

First of all two months is not a sufficiently long time period to age spirits with oak, even for a small volume. There are a number of chemical processes that occur and they take time. Give it at least a year.

Second, at what temperature was the oak toasted? If toasted below 350F you will get an excess of woody flavors. Oak needs to be toasted above 350F to get past the woodiness and get the wood sugars and vanillins.

Big R

[augiecrazy8]

Big R, what generic level of toast would equal over 350? What I mean is you see oak chips & sticks advertised as heavy or medium toast. I purchased heavy toast American oak spirals and was hoping/expecting to get plenty of sweetness and vanilla from them over time. I've seen the graph floating around that shows the different flavor profiles that come from different char temps, but I don't remember seeing those temps related to a generic label of toast such as medium or heavy.

[rtalbigr]

Big R, what generic level of toast would equal over 350? What I mean is you see oak chips & sticks advertised as heavy or medium toast. I purchased heavy toast American oak spirals and was hoping/expecting to get plenty of sweetness and vanilla from them over time. I've seen the graph floating around that shows the different flavor profiles that come from different char temps, but I don't remember seeing those temps related to a generic label of toast such as medium or heavy.

I've never come across anything that would indicate what they actually mean by by a given level of toast. That said, I have purchased barrels that were a medium toast that produced a nice product when given sufficient time. The oak I use for glass aging I toast my self at 400F for 4 hours. If I were to purchase pre-toasted sticks/spirals/cubes I'd re-toast them so that I knew what I was actually using.

Big R

[augiecrazy8]

I'm not real comfortable toasting anything in my oven as I don't have one of those plugin toaster ovens & live in an apartment. So a bit hesitant. I have been using chips from my local HBS. Heavy toast is much darker & colors the distillate quickly. The medium is much lighter and doesn't add a whole bunch of color at all. I just bought heavy toast spirals that I'm expecting will provide more of the flavor profile than the chips. I just don't know the temp they were toasted at, so I'm not sure what flavors to expect over time. I'll shoot the producer an email & see if I can get those details & will share.