Rye bread whiskey

[Barney Fife]

f you roast dry. just the mallard reaction takes place.(roasted/toasted malt)
if you roast whet ,the starch starts to convert and it caramelizes the sugars. (caramel malt)

if you roast unmalted grain then no conversion can take place ,there for it would not mater if whet or dry

I think 'ol dnderhead's onto something here. If it's the Maillard reaction that is the prime reason for tyhe flavor you're after, you should be able to get it by roasting raw rye for a long period(overnight or longer) at low temperatures. The rye bread doesn't use malted rye, so we wouldn't want to use malted rye if we're seeking the Maillard Reaction that you like in the rye bread. And since raw rye grain is dirt-cheap, we could have a real winner as far as sugar head recipes go.

I'll have to give this a try, but it won't be a while, as I'm in rum-restocking mode right now....

[Dnderhead]

yes I was trying to git at the difference between maillard and caramelized.
so those in US.(others?) that does not have the bread could do similar experiments.
I do not thank distillers of long ago toasted any "raw" grains.but they mite have
done so with malt(s).

[Odin]

+1 on Barney and Dunderhead!

Not everybody has access to rye bread as I do. So a method to "Maillardize" your own grain is needed. Hey, and who says it has to be rye? Other grains can be used as well.

Just a note on Barney's and Dunderheads remarks. Toasting might not be the best way. Even at very low temps (194 degrees F max). The Maillard Reaction works best in a lightly alcalyne environment. And some water isn't bad at all. On the contrary. Or "au contraire", as Mr. Maillard would have said himself. As long as you don't boil. In other words: as long as you keep temps relatively down.

The best way to make / Maillardize your own grain is like this: Per 1 kilo of broken grain, bring 1 liter of water to a boil. Put the broken grain into the boiling water, while shutting off the heating. We don't want to boil the grain, just to moisture it in a warm, lightly alcalyne environment. Water PH is 7.5 to 8.0 so that's about perfect. Add the grain, mix it in, let it cool with the lid on. Slowly, overnight. Next morning put the mixture in an oven tray and cover the tray with aluminium foil. Heat at 194 degrees F for 6 hours. After 3 hours you might want to add some extra water. After 6 hours you have 1 kilo (but the method is perfectly scalable, so you can go for 2 or 3 or 10 or 30 kilo's if you like) of Maillardized grain. Can be rye, can be wheat, can be whatever.

Just talked to a good friend of mine. He is going to make a small video of the process of Maillardization. Like this anyone can do it themselves. At home. Even when there is not Dutch rye bread to be found in your area. In English actually, so you might even understand it!



He will try to shoot the video tomorrow, using some of my broken red wheat.

Odin.

[Odin]

Video takes some more time! We shot everything, but "putting it together" seems to be more work than I could have imagined.

Anyhow, just stripped another generation of the Rye bread whiskey. And started up a new generation using some 20% backset from this strip. The darkest beer as well as backset I ever saw. Decided to re-use the yeast and grain bed on this next generation, since ... well, taste is so abundant a litlle less won't hurt. And I am thinking of really making this my standard recipe. And that means I will use it double distilled in a potstill. As a whiskey and as a base for my old style geneva. And fractionated into a vodka, that can also be used as base for my young style geneva. Four of my favorite drinks from one beer recipe, not bad.

I decided to follow up on Mr.P's suggestion and added a few lices of black rye bread to the low wines I just stripped. I will leave them in for a few days and do a spirit run (with rye bread in the low wines) in the weekend. Fermenting on the grain, Maillard, distilling on the grain. Maximum taste explosion. Hope I don't scorche my throat!

Odin.

[elektrosport]

That sounds so good Odin. I distill mine 1.5 or 2.25(?)

However "dry-graining" the finished wash may bring some of the none-fermented characteristics over into the distillate, sounds like a plan. I'm game next round!


Cheers,
ES

[kaziel]

Made my fist batch today:
25L water
1.5kg of rye bread
4kg sugar
15g of Saccharomyces cerevisiae
17g of dap
5g complex nutri
Parent site calcs give me 8.6% ABV i will add some (0.5kg) sugar maybe tomorrow to go to 9.4%. Still no bubbles in airlock . Hopefully tomorrow before work when I enter the room wash smell will knock me down . BTW I've tasted rye bread pulp before transferring to fermenter - WoW .

[Odin]

Looking good, Kaziel!

I just f*cked up my run last night. Too busy with work. Forgot my heads to hearts cut. So I decided to run it all. Like a second strip run. Heads, hearts, tails. I will add them to another batch I will distill later.

Smell. I was distilling, yesterday evening, and smelled something sweet and delicious. Couldn't place it. But now (morning, breakfast) I can. Both the ferment and the distillation of this MR rye bread whiskey smell like ... honey. Sweet, fruity, delicious.

Odin.

[kaziel]

My first batch is down to 2 BLG (after adding 0.5kg sugar yesterday) and still going fast. I've just stripped one Gerber wash and got 2nd fermenter empty, I think i will make 2nd 25L batch Wednesday and 3rd one after weekend after striping the oldest one (3rd one with back set from 1st one). I was kinda surprised when i took a small sip during SG checking today, wash tasted like some young wine or mead very nice .

P.S Can I MR corn in the same procedure described for rye?

[Odin]

Not sure. I think you can MR pretty much any grain with the procedure mentioned above. But corn is so different, that I am not sure. First tests by another member show maybe this approach doesn't work for corn. But please try and let us know!

Odin.

[Mr Shine]

Access to good rye bread really isn't a problem, but I just thought of this question Odin:

Can one use whole grain rye flour (like this one: http://www.arrowheadmills.com/product/rye-flour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) and follow the procedure you wrote above (quoted below)?

The best way to make / Maillardize your own grain is like this: Per 1 kilo of broken grain, bring 1 liter of water to a boil. Put the broken grain into the boiling water, while shutting off the heating. We don't want to boil the grain, just to moisture it in a warm, lightly alcalyne environment. Water PH is 7.5 to 8.0 so that's about perfect. Add the grain, mix it in, let it cool with the lid on. Slowly, overnight. Next morning put the mixture in an oven tray and cover the tray with aluminium foil. Heat at 194 degrees F for 6 hours. After 3 hours you might want to add some extra water. After 6 hours you have 1 kilo (but the method is perfectly scalable, so you can go for 2 or 3 or 10 or 30 kilo's if you like) of Maillardized grain. Can be rye, can be wheat, can be whatever.

Would someone be able to substitute the flour (or an amount of the flour) for the grain? I'm very curious.

[Odin]

I think you can! Flour will suck up more water than broken rye, so maybe you will need to add a bit more water.

Odin.

[kaziel]

Made my second batch today . First one is almost ready (down to -2 BLG) and waiting for a transfer to my basement so it can settle a bit. I think I will run this through my still Friday on during weekend . Looking at store shells I've notice few other kinds of rye bread, with f.e with white wheat or with malt (barley) extract I think about buying few of them and taking a closer look how they taste, maybe I'll find something interesting. My third batch will be done with some backset from stripping 1st one and after that I want to experiment with wine makers yeast I've got one Hungarian strain that give my fruit wines honey-raisins kinda taste I think this is definitely worth trying .

[BoomTown]

[quote="Barney Fife"]f you roast dry. just the mallard reaction takes place.(roasted/toasted malt)
if you roast whet ,the starch starts to convert and it caramelizes the sugars. (caramel malt)

I think 'ol dnderhead's onto something here. If it's the Maillard reaction that is the prime reason for tyhe flavor you're after, you should be able to get it by roasting raw rye for a long period(overnight or longer) at low temperatures.

Dnderhead, I'm wondering if one could roast Barley Malt to caramelize the sugars, roast it till it's really browned, and then use it to flavor and darken White? Did you ever try that?

Boom

[Odin]

If you stay below 100 degrees C it won't caramelize. Maillard's browning is done at lower temps. Gives off more taste than caramelization.

Odin.

[cracker 1]

Odin are you fermenting with or without an air-lock? Thanks

[Odin]

Depends. I have one fermenter with an airlock and two without. I just put a towel on top of them. Remember CO2 is heavier than air, so the gasses will form a "blanket" over the liquid.

Odin.

[Mashy]

Thanks for the recipe Odin. I'll be doing that one next for sure. Sick of doing AG's with rye as it suck up a ton of water, never seems to clear and is weak in the sugar dept. I've scorched all of my rye AG's except for one, the last just last weekend. I've tried reracking after ferment and waiting two weeks a couple times and on this last one I even used a super kleer and waited two days. Then heated with my element VERY slowly and still got a partial scorch. I'm done with AG's and rye for a minute so this was the perfect thread to stumble upon as I love that spicy Rye taste.

[Mashy]

For those in the US trying to find the real European style rye bread....

Mestemacher Whole Rye Bread, 17.6-Ounce Packages (Pack of 12)
by Mestemacher
4.6 out of 5 stars See all reviews (27 customer reviews)

Price: $30.46 ($0.14 / oz) & FREE Shipping. Details
In Stock.

Ships from and sold by Amazon.com.

Product Description
Mestemacher all natural whole grain, sourdough based bread with whole rye kernels. Carries the Whole Grain Association's stamp of 100% excellent source of whole grain. Diets rich in whole grain foods and other plant foods, and low in total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol, may help reduce the risk of heart disease and certain cancers. Long shelf life obtained through pasteurization. Imported from Germany by Carl Brandt, Inc. Original German Whole Rye bread in U.S. marketplace.

[Odin]

Sounds good! As long as it is baked for a long time at low temps, it will give a flat, dense, black bread. That's what we are after!

Odin.

[brantoken]

I have got to say this is a very inspirational thread. I have often wondered why good European rye tastes much better than what we get in the states. Thanks for the answer.

Also I was curious about what is called a Rue here in the states , specifically Louisiana. It consist of cooking wheat flour in a oil in the bottom of a pot as a starting base for gumbo.
It certainly isn't caramelized, it is done over low heat. There is no base( alkaline) substance added unless oil is slightly base ( I have no idea)

Also have another question, I love rye as well. I have played with it in various recipes. What I get sometimes is what I call and think is referred to as a " hot" taste in the end product. Is this what you mean by
spicy or is the another part of the rye flavor you are referring too?

I have my own idea about where "hot " distillate comes from, but I have been wrong before.

One more stupid question , is the mallard reaction speed up by a higher ph?

I am certainly going to give this a go in the future......Thanks again Odin!

[mystakilla]

A rue is used as a thickening agent for soups and such.

[brantoken]

yeah , understood.
But it is cooked for a long time in some cases.
Is it classified as a mallard process or is it just toasting the flour via the process.

The point being I was wondering if it was another means to reach the same goals.

[Odin]

A rue is something else all togeter, Brantoken.

Yes, up the ph (calcium carbonate for instance) and the reaction goes faster.

The hotness I refer to is the spiciness that rye has ... and more.

Love to hear your results!

Odin.

[kaziel]

Finally I've managed to strip first batch . From 22L of 10% wash I've got 3.1L of 55% distillate. I've discarded 150ml of fores I've really don't like tails so I didn't go far into them. I've don't know what to expect I've never drink rye whiskey I was collecting to 0.7L bottles second one is quite nice but with a bite but I think that's because is too fresh. Anyway nice recipe distillate taste really good u can feel rye with fruity note after a while and second distillation IMO this will be awesome drink.

[Beam]

hey i was just wondering how much yeast to use, as i dont think the exact amount has been stated yet? if so sorry i didnt see it

[Odin]

Something like 6 or 7 tablespoons of dried granulated baker's yeast will do.

Odin.

[Beam]

thank you for the reply

[Beam]

when you say get the darkest rye bread i can, would black rye bread be a good rye bread to be using?

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=black ... 11&bih=586" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Odin]

Not sure. Doesn't look like the dense stuff. Okay, it will give you a good drink. Even when it is not the densest you can find. But the dense, packed rye bread/pumpernickel has been baked at tempertures below 100 degrees C (water boiling point) for a prolongued period of thime. That's what triggers the Maillard reaction ... But this is easily solved: Soak it in water, put it in the oven for hours at below 100 degrees C.

Odin.

[Beam]

cheers i know what i shall be doing tomorrow