How much oak?

[Jughead]

I have made several batches of ujsm but have always done single runs and only aged on a stick of oak in a quart jar for a couple weeks before it gets poured down my gullet!

I have finally made a few stripping runs (using backset each time) and then did a slow spirit run. Collected almost 3 gallons starting at 80% collected down to 70% for aging. I finally have enough made to age some properly.

I have 1/2" sticks cut to 6" long that i toasted in oven at 400 degrees for 4 hours then charred with tourch. Its white oak cut from about 40 year old rough lumber.

The question i have is how many sticks and how long should i leave them in? I have it stored in one gallon glass jugs.

I

[Andy Capp]

best bet to read this post. "oaking 101" has all the answers.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 64&t=28615

[Jughead]

I have read that several times. That is where i came up with the oven temp. I guess i was looking more details like "half charred and half toasted" or "leave on oak for xxx days/weeks then remove oak". It just seems i have seen a lot of conflicting ideas and was hoping to make this my best batch. Should i leave all the oak in there the whole time it ages?

I was hoping not to get blasted here for not looking things up as i have spent waaayyy more time on this forum than the number of my posts indicate. Is over oaking too much oak or too long?

[mystakilla]

I've seen it posted somewhere about 1 month jar oaking is equivalent to a year in a barrel.

[Dnderhead]

"1 month jar oaking is equivalent to a year in a barrel."
NO way,, jar aging will never equal barrel aging.to much goes on in a barrel that can never happen in a jar.one month per gallon is what is recommended for small barrels,but it wont be the same as if it were aged in a lager barrel.
to say,,5 months in a 5 gallon barrel,,10 months in a 10 gallon barrel equals 1 year aging in a larger barrel.this I believe is more about flavor /wood contact.
jar aging will help, just wont be the same.balk aging is better than a bunch of small jars,its more consistent/better outcome.

[Odin]

What I learned from Big R is: you can age smaller quantities on wood, but have to take them of the wood sooner. Like Dunder says. But that's just the wood extraction process. Ageing is something different. I a big barrel wood extraction and ageing have pretty much the same speed. In smaller quantities, you need to take it of the wood sooner and then let it age for another 6 to 9 months.

Odin.

[frunobulax]

I have some product on oak spirals now and read where you should pull them out after X amount of time because everything is extracted and it may get woody tasting.
The question is, doesn't it stop ageing once it's off the oak? Like when they take a whiskey out of a barrel and bottle it,the flavor is fixed and it doesn't change any more.

[Bushman]

Odin is on to something with his Ultra Sonic Cleaner. I started PMing him after tasting at a distillery here in the state of Washington called "Blue Spirits". He would not share his secret with me but I ascertained that he chemically aged his spirits by inducing bubbles. The owner entered a contest that was for whiskey aged under 10 years and walked away with a bronze metal after only aging 4 months. Below is a link to an article worth reading.

http://www.popsci.com/technology/articl ... der-faster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[mash rookie]

Jug head you will have to sample often to make sure you dont over oak.

Nice link BM. They note that although improved, a woody taste was still there on the young whiskey.
I told you about the guy making award winning white rum using bubblers. It obviously had not been exposed to wood.

There are methods to clean the spirits without removing flavor congeners. I think a we should have a conversation about avoiding wood flavors. I call it wood tannins. (I could be wrong)

I avoid wood flavor by using JD chips that have previously been exposed to alcohol that depletes the tannins.
I have heard of some guys that use very high ABV heads to soak their oak staves in to remove tannins. I think a good method would be to bake staves before soaking in high ABV, than char to remove heads before adding to product. You could keep staves soaking in advance. I think I will try this.

Bubbling the spirits with 02 before oaking will help remove lower BP alcohols. I am curious about the ultra sonic. After blending some BW a few days ago, 24 hours of open airing much improved the 90p vodka before bottling.

[Bushman]

Jug head you will have to sample often to make sure you dont over oak.

Nice link BM. They note that although improved, a woody taste was still there on the young whiskey.
I told you about the guy making award winning white rum using bubblers. It obviously had not been exposed to wood.

There are methods to clean the spirits without removing flavor congeners. I think a we should have a conversation about avoiding wood flavors. I call it wood tannins. (I could be wrong)

I avoid wood flavor by using JD chips that have previously been exposed to alcohol that depletes the tannins.
I have heard of some guys that use very high ABV heads to soak their oak staves in to remove tannins. I think a good method would be to bake staves before soaking in high ABV, than char to remove heads before adding to product. You could keep staves soaking in advance. I think I will try this.

Bubbling the spirits with 02 before oaking will help remove lower BP alcohols. I am curious about the ultra sonic. After blending some BW a few days ago, 24 hours of open airing much improved the 90p vodka before bottling.

I believe Odin told me he adds the JD chips with the alcohol in the Ultra Sonic Cleaner.

[blind drunk]

I have heard of some guys that use very high ABV heads to soak their oak staves in to remove tannins. I think a good method would be to bake staves before soaking in high ABV, than char to remove heads before adding to product. You could keep staves soaking in advance.

That's good, mash rookie. The other day, in my haste, I threw a couple of really aged sticks into a jar of distilled apple likker just to try a give it a really light color; more for the eye, than for the taste. Wouldn't you know it, the stuff went from being really smooth to all pins and needles in about a day! I had thought of what you're recommending after the fact; it became obvious then So, good advice.

Trying to decide whether to rerun or just age it out.

[Jughead]

I have tried the ultrasonic a few times. I noticed when done on oak it gets pretty woody. When done white only it seems to smooth it out a bit quicker. If i put the lid on loosly and sonic it for about fifteen minutes and then smell the head space, it seems to be pulling out some kind of funky smell!

This is just type of discussion i was hoping for in this thread!

I read a ton on this site just dont post much. I do recognize all the names responding here!

[frozenthunderbolt]

The question is, doesn't it stop ageing once it's off the oak?

Nope, it keeps changing - the products pulled from the wood catalyze the breakdown and transformation of some congers over time smoothing and adding flavors to the product.
This is why whisky snobs shit them selves for 100YO bottles

[frozenthunderbolt]

Is over oaking too much oak or too long?

Can be either, MUCH more likely to be too much oak though.
Good rule of thumb is the longer you intend to leave it, the less oak you use (and the better spirit you will end up with) I usually use (if i put my oak dominoes together) a piece *about* 1/4-1/3 the diameter of the base of the (full) container i'm using at 1inch square.
So if i use a gallon jug with a base of 30cm i would add 6x oak dominoes 5cm long (10 cm total length in a 2x3 array) and |||about 6-7mm thick (total thickness of about 21mm)
||| Happy to leave it on this much 6 months to a year, then i might leave 1-2 (probably more charred ones to scrub it up a bit) in for longer (note i don't add NEW dominoes; i don't want more tannins and flavour compounds)

[Jughead]

So i put 3 sticks about 1/2 x 3/4 x6 inches in each gallon of 60% and will check weekly to see how its coming along. Odin, i have read probably over a hundred of your posts and always find what you have to say interesting. Thanks!

[frozenthunderbolt]

So i put 3 sticks about 1/2 x 3/4 x6 inches in each gallon of 60% and will check weekly to see how its coming along. Odin, i have read probably over a hundred of your posts and always find what you have to say interesting. Thanks!

It's also worth cutting to 50% and aging a few months on the same oak there - will pull different flavours.

[Odin]

Jughead, not trying to hijack the post, but want to reply with some of my info / experience with ultrasonic ageing. And throw in some info on my experience with wood as well.

I love to work with American white oak staves. Look at Pigroaster's or HolyBear's posts if you want to find out more.

Cut with the grain gives of wood tastes slower, cut across the grain will give off wood tastes faster. That's about wood, not about age. Ageing is giving molecules in the drink time to connect, change, alter, giving you a smoother, more complex product. Wood is about adding / extracting wood tastes. And charred wood will clean up some bigger alcohol molecules. Interesting part: wood adds molecules that interact with booz molecules. In short: even though "on the wood'" is not the same as "ageing", wood flavours add to the ageing process giving you an even more interesting, complex and smoothed out product.

The quantities we do it with are small. So the square of the wood is soon too much. That means you run a risk of over oaking. Especially with cut across the grain. Mash Rookies comment on using JD Wood Oaking Chips makes perfect sense: most of the tanines are out, so the risk of over oaking is much less. And you can extract faster. Maybe using up to 20% of the space to soak likker in. For about 4 to 5 weeks will be fine.

For staves I would go for around 100 grams per 15 liters of 60% booz. You could choose to oak at 55% for more vanillin extraction. Above 60% you run a risk on getting to many tanines over. For cut with the grain, three months of ageing on oak is good. Then maybe another 6 to 9 months of the oak. For cut across the grain ... maybe a week is enough. Colour is a good indication.

Over oaking, it seems, does not have to be a big problem. Big R is doing tests on it and finds out (if my interpretation is correct) that you just need to give it more time to age. Maybe 1 to 1 1/2 years?

Charred wood cleans up the higher boiling point alcohols more efficiently. Toasted wood (medium to medium plus) gives a more complex taste.

Now on ultrasonic cleaning. You can speed up wood extraction by adding staves or chips to your likker and giving it an ultrasonic treatment. But since ageing is the bottle neck, timewise, where is the use in that? I normally give my likker a us-treatment after diluting to "on the wood" abv. Then the ageing on wood. Then another few treatments after I take it of the wood. Then the actual ageing, lowering abv to drinking strength and another us-treatment or two. It helps ageing, it quickens ageing, but it does not mean you can make a drink in a few weeks. After the final treatments I feel things are still improving in the bottle for up to 5 weeks.

Bubbling air also helps the ageing process. It adds oxygen to the equasion. And so does warming a drink up. Chemical processes go faster at higher temperatures.

The optimal approach (apart from just giving it time) may well be: first bubble air thru your likker (I have a bubbler that I also use to aereate the mash), then give it an ultrasonic treatment, heating up to 40 degrees C. You get the benefits of oxygen, ultrasonic cleaning (with added oxygen) and warmth.

Just my take on it.

Odin.

[Odin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2qhwKgIY6Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ZVzJ7Sie0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The grey things are the fractals. There is nothing sollid in the likker.

In the second vid you see how the process heats up the likker pretty fast.

Odin.

[Jughead]

When i tried the ultrasonic, i put about a cup of water in the ultrasonic then put the quart jar in the water. It seems to do what its supposed to do.

[gatortommy]

Odin said..."You could choose to oak at 55% for more vanillin extraction. Above 60% you run a risk on getting to many tanines over. For cut with the grain, three months of ageing on oak is good. Then maybe another 6 to 9 months of the oak. For cut across the grain ... maybe a week is enough. Colour is a good indication."

This make some sense to me. I recently put a liter jar of 1 run middle hearts rum that came off at 55% on 2 sticks of cross cut, toasted, with charred edges oak, and in 3 weeks it was the best rum I've ever tasted...bar none. Really special vanilla flavors. Since then, I've been blending the entire runs and oaking the same way but at 60%. At 3 weeks, they're good, but not special like that 55% jar. I may go to blending at 55% to try to duplicate that magic jar...which is long gone now.

[Jughead]

I had one run of ujsm that i did very early into my distilling adventure that was just awesome. It was single distilled, put on oak from menards and only aged a few weeks. Don't even know what the abv was when i put it on the oak! I remember cutting it to 40% and being absolutely floored by how smooth it was. Have been chasing those results ever since then.

Now using my detuned boka head, doing striping and spirit runs, tight cuts, good oak, and aging at desired abv, i still have not hit that magic bottle again. I produce drinkable stuff, but not like the one that i am chasing.

I remember getting up at 7 am to go to the lake and getting that jar of oaked ujsm cutting it to 40% and tasting it. I had to keep checking the abv because it was so smooth i thought it had lost its proof. Nothing but warm flavors. No burn at all! Thats what i am trying to experience again. Well, maybe not the 7 am taste test!!!!

[Bushman]

Good info Odin

[mash rookie]

+1. Good stuff Odin.

liters of 60% booz. You could choose to oak at 55% for more vanillin extraction. Above 60% you run a risk on getting to many tanines over.

I like to oak at 50-55% for a darker rich flavor. Lower ABV = richer flavor. Higher ABV= lighter flavor. I loose 10 points to oak and air. (mostly heads I hope) I bottle off the oak. 90p -100p

I have heated my stuff before for forced airing. You can see and smell some real nasties come off. It worked well but can be dangerous. I just air now. Even when making neutral at 95%+ you can get heads into the good stuff. A little extra work and you can get most out.

[Odin]

Same experience here, MR! Higher proof = different tastes and less taste on the wood department. Lower proof is another taste and more taste. Might (partially?) have to do with less diluting. If you water down from 60 to 40, you will end up with less wood than when you water down from 50 to 40%. I guess.

MR, you loose 10 points like in "proof"? That would be like my 5% abv. That's what I loose when ageing on wood. But ... I think (since I use caps) that the real loss should be less. I expect the wood sugars to slightly throw of the reading as well.

BTW, I do the ultrasonic treatment directly. So with likker in the aparatus. Not in a bottle that sits in water.

Odin.

[rtalbigr]

The most important part of oak aging is time. Let me repeat that, the most important part of oak aging is time. Yes, there are other factors that play an important role, toasting being one of the most significant, charring, only to a certain degree, and yes the amount of oak can be important.

Toasting changes the structure of elements within the wood. Charring is more notable in removing some "off notes" and can give some burnt wood flavors, so in that sense could or could not be desirable.

Toasting the hemicellulose (a two-dimensional polymer of simple sugars) makes available a number of simple sugars (glucose, mannose, rhamnose, etc) that will give the aged distillate a subtle sweetness. Some of these sugars are also caramelized during toasting adding the caramel flavors in whiskeys.

Oak lignins, when toasted, break down into a number of useful compounds the most significant of which is vanillin and vanillic acid. This, of course, yields the vanilla flavors in a good whiskey.

Oak tannins are too often mentioned as a bad thing when actually they are an important contribution to the finished product. While too much oak tannin can produce an undesirable astringency, oak tannins go through a series of chemical reactions that produce activated oxygen and eventually diethyl acetal, or acetal. Acetal is what gives a good whiskey its delicacy and finish. So oak tannins do play an important part in proper oak aging.

As related to the ABV for aging, some of the compounds produced in toasted oak react with water and some react with ethanol, so, a balance is needed. I have tried aging at defferent abv's, and prefer 65%. In my research I have found that industry standards are generally 55-65%.

Once again, the most important concept is time. These chemical reactions and changes do not occur within a few weeks, or even a few months. In my experience, 14-16 months is a minimum and longer is better.

Big R

[TheRevDr]

BTW, I do the ultrasonic treatment directly. So with likker in the aparatus. Not in a bottle that sits in water.

Odin.

I would caution against this. I have seen what happens when electronics go bad around flammable liquids. I have even seen "spark-proof" equipment spark. Things get ugly quickly.

[Andy Capp]

The most important part of oak aging is time.

Agree 100%
In my short experience with this hobby, i have found this to be true with every batch i make. I've tried distress aging and adding other flavours but nothing beats just leaving it alone with charred oak for as long as possible. I don't see how over oaking is possible if your using the same ratio of oak per volume of spirit as would a 55 gallon oak barrell have. Some of the best bourbon whiskeys are aged over 10 years. All done with freshly charred barrells.

[Bushman]

Once again, the most important concept is time. These chemical reactions and changes do not occur within a few weeks, or even a few months. In my experience, 14-16 months is a minimum and longer is better.
Big R

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you. The change in this thread to ultra sonic is my fault as I toured a distillery that I thought had some of the best products on the market. He aged his whiskey in oak barrels but he also did something to smooth out his product. When I got him to hint about it by asking about his adding flavors and does he infuse or use another method. He said he does not infuse and was the only one in the US that does it this way and learned a similar method in Germany. He has a patent on what he does and it has to do with his method or equipment. Upon further research and talking with Odin we believe his method is very similar to what Odin does. On the back of his bottles it says " created through a patented process where revolutionary art and science allow the transformation of distilled spirits into incredibly smooth, ultra premium luxury." He talked about inducing bubbles through a chemical process.

[Jughead]

What about running some that has been aged on oak for a few weeks and put that in the ultrasonic? Has anyone tried this?

[Odin]

Yes I did!

Odin.