Nuclear Whiskey / Nuclear Rum and Spirits Rapid Ageing

[Bushman]

Patent pending doesn't mean squat. Trust me. Big difference between a provisional patent and a utility patent. Patent pending means you have thrown money at an IP attorney and filed an application. One missed comma or vague similarity to another patent and it can be rejected so your attorney can charge you more, re write the application and start a patent search all over again. Not a process for the weak of heart or wallet. I know!

So.....to update my opinion. (And stir the pot) As much as I respect the traditional methods and those that believe in them, I am quick to encourage creative thinking.
I have made stuff in 8 weeks better that any top shelf I have ever tasted.

The techniques and process you develop can be applied with heat exchangers or electric hot plate double boilers if proven affective and safety is still questioned.

I do think someone with a large lot, 100-200 foot cord and a garage sale microwave oven should settle the safety question by nuking a Pyrex cup full of 190p until boiled dry or exploded.

Outdoors, Far Away. No added issues.

Not to the degree you suggest but using FS method that's exactly what I did to first test it along with a fire extinguisher on hand. A load noise might attract the neighbors which is one thing I don't want to do so I challenge someone that has no neighbors near by to follow Mash Rookies idea and bring their findings back to us.

[bellybuster]

just for interest.
4 weeks ago I put some 55% 1st gen UJ on JD chips. I just side by side tasted it with Nuked stuff and the flavours are to the point I can't tell the difference. Big difference is colour. The nuked stuff has a browner colour where the soaked has a more golden colour. The golden colour is much more pleasing to the eye. The nuked stuff looks "cooked".
Not a scientific experiment but interesting the same. 4 weeks is not a long time on the chips so I think i will use the nuke method for quick results when needed and stick with the soaking.
Next run, I'll try some cherry. I have some stuff that was done on cherry for 8 weeks.

[FullySilenced]

Bellybuster, Reduce the amount of chips your using or one less heat cycle and you will have the lighter color ... I personally consider the taste to be the end i am after.... but if color is important to you try less heat and longer soaking between cycles... either will change the color ...... but it will also effect the taste...

Second use of the chips, chunks or staves also reduces the color profile....

Good luck with the cherry, some good things have been made using it and this process. The color will be unbelievable...

Happy Stillin,

FS

[Bushman]

The distiller I talked to here in Washington uses ultra sonic methods for smoothing and aging but then puts it in barrels for 3-4 years to finish the product. I think this is the direction I am going to head and I like the idea of kick starting it and making sure what I am putting into the barrels is a good quality before hand as I am not ready to totally abandon the barrel aging process.

[Doogie]

ok tried this out - I like it, but I am a noob, but also, as long as I like it, that is all that matters

Took a gen1 & gen2 UJSSM - about 350mL in 3 sample containers (quarts).
T1 - 2 sticks x 4" of cherry
T2 - 1 stick of cherry, 1/4 cup JD chips
T3 - 1/2 cup JD chips

All 3 were given 1/3 v-bean on the 3rd of 3 nuking rounds. At the end, aired for 2 hours

Started at about 62% ABV, ended with 55%. Diluted down to 50%

50mL sample size in 3 small cups - added 4x coke.
Difference between all 3 with coke were negligible ... maybe sample size was too small?
All cherry was ok, cherry & JD chips was good, JD chips was really nice. Still smooth, slight tingle/burn, easy to drink ('cause I cut it like I read here).

Colour - the T1 was the darkest slightly over T2. T3 totally different colour (as expected) and looked like piss after you forgot to drink water for a day.

Overall, nice experiment, definate repeat ... no my house did not blow up as I monitored the entire nuking process and at the start nuked in 1 minute intervals (all 3 quarts took 5 min together)

Thanks for the info and tips FS and all ...

[shawn2974]

If u guys dont mind id like to give my findings in this method. After i first heard about this the first thought popped in my head was " NO FREAKING WAY THAT WORKS". Well heres my results... I had about 2 qts of an AG hearts that i cut to 60% that i was gonna put on oak till i read this. I completed the method as posted .. after 3 cycles on JD chips with 1 qt and 3 cycles of applewood chips on the other it was taste test time. My DAD is a die hard whiskey drinker (not a drunk) just a man who knows whiskey, he hit a shot of each @ 1:30 today and his words were " THIS IS PRICELESS" all the money i spent over the years buying good whiskey and im holding some of the finest ive ever drank. Made me feel good even though im still wet behind the ears in the distilling world and making good cuts. So there u have it guys, . I just wanna add one more thing, LWTCS had a great point when he said this was a great way to be able to build our stock to be able to age the traditional way and be able to share great XMAS gifts CHEAP. Im all about satifying my taste and what works for me but i still wanna taste some of my stuff aged 2 -5 years from now.

THANKS FS

[Max_Vino]

Patent pending doesn't mean squat. Trust me. Big difference between a provisional patent and a utility patent. Patent pending means you have thrown money at an IP attorney and filed an application. One missed comma or vague similarity to another patent and it can be rejected so your attorney can charge you more, re write the application and start a patent search all over again. Not a process for the weak of heart or wallet. I know!

I admire his entrepreneurial spirit and efforts. Going to a outside supplier for feedstock is a mistake…

Artificially aging Madeira has been going on for centuries using accelerated heating/cooling cycles over oak and is fairly well known. The main claim of his patent is to increase the contact and penetration of the alcohol with wood using heat/pressure cycles. I think he is probably right about that but how this is different from other methods of achieving the same end is lost on me. Oak chips, small barrels, pumping over an extraction column, etc. will do the same thing. All of these will help trap fusels and other long chain compounds and add extracted oak sugars and flavors….but this won't help the oxidation or esterification of organic acids to improve taste. I have read that the general consensus of "tasters" is that the alcohols produced through artificial aging are smoother and "better" but lack the complexity of long ages spirits. I am surprised he didn't add oxygenation to his menu. I think it would help.

I don't think using microwaved heating and cooling cycles is in any way a violation of his patent (assuming he gets it) and I would suggest you might want to try bubbling air into the mix between cycles and see what that does. Excitation of the molecules in the company of oxygen could be just the thing.

Max

[Doogie]

maybe some good shaking of the jars prior and after the nuking session? I did that just for checking the colour ... guess you could mod that process to open the jar, let it air for a minute, then close it up, shakey-shakey, open, nuke, close, shakey shakey again ...

[buflowing]

If you don't want anybody to know what you are doing, particularly when it comes to a process, you don't publish it in a patent. You keep it a trade secret. Don't read too much into his patent application. I'm sure the whole story is not being told.

[buflowing]

You might find it interesting to apply a higher vacuum after heating than you can get with lidding and cooling. Think VacuVin. Seems to really move the spirits in and out of the wood. If you get it hot enough, you can also get it to boil outside the microwave when you reduce the pressure. Not sure that does any good or any bad, but it is interesting to watch. A jar of boiling hootch you can hold in your hand.

[Dnderhead]

heated 200f for 24 hours -cooled to 0 f 24 hours.sounds beyond a simple nuk and most containers we have .vacuum does draw out some of the flavors but not all.

revues?? taste like crap.

[FullySilenced]

heated 200f for 24 hours -cooled to 0 f 24 hours.sounds beyond a simple nuk and most containers we have .vacuum does draw out some of the flavors but not all.

What process are you talking about here Dnderhead?

[Dnderhead]

its what i was reading in the patent proses.

if you Google artificial aging spirits you will fiend 1,000s of patents that never worked .
some improve spirits a bit others do nothing.aging is still elusive.
if you put a air stone in spirits it will improve. but just like heating ,ultra sonic, i thank your just getting rid of fores that is not removed during distilling.sort of speeding up the angels share.
on/off vacuum will draw out wood flavors if you want a woody product,I thought of doing this then try aging in glass but my days are numbered.possibly on/off vacuum then oxygenating and leaving to age in glass? there are hundreds of chemical posses that go on when spirits are aged some can be duplicated and not others.
so my conclusion,,can spirits be improved by artificial/maniacal means? yes.can it replace aging no.

[FullySilenced]

I never intended the process i was sharing to be a replacement for keg ageing. I just didn't have 10 years of aged product sitting in the basement or closet. I started working on something that made the product better for myself, my family and friends. I feel that it has potential for us the small distillers.

I don't expect to ever be a distiller of the caliber of yourself and other here on this forum, but i do try to be the best that i can be. I can honestly say i have enjoyed developing the procedure as it is now and its been a pleasure to share with others... except for the fire and blow yourself up rumors...

Were still not finished as its a work in progress, but as a group we should be able to put together something that is repeatable and reliable in the product it helps to finish.

Happy Stillin

FS

[Dnderhead]

I never said that .I said to take precautions.

[Buccaneer Bob]

I am not the kind of guy who likes to steal other people's thunder -- I'm really not that guy -- but browsing through this thread and looking at everyone's pictures, the thing that kept popping into my head was "sun tea".



I'm sure a few of you have made "sun tea" before. That's about the only way I make tea, myself.

Using sunlight rather than microwaves to distress-age liquor might be a better way to go for some folks. Those looking for a more "natural" way and anyone afraid of the fire risk might consider going with a "sun tea" approach instead.

There may even be some advantage to the fact that you can do both a pressurized cycle and a vacuum cycle, depending on what times you seal and open the jar.

It's funny because the times when the subject of deliberately exposing liquor to sunlight has come up, a lot of folks seemed to frown on the idea.

But given the success that y'all have been having with microwaves, maybe a little sunlight might not be such a bad thing after all.

I don't know, might be worth a try, anyway.

[ErnieV]

It looks to me like that's nothing to do with the sun that has changed the colour, but the tea bags, wouldn't you think?

[Odin]

Not sure, Ernie, not sure.

I remember last holidays. Warm. Lots of sun. I think I actually got a tan!



Odin.

[tickle]

It looks to me like that's nothing to do with the sun that has changed the colour, but the tea bags, wouldn't you think?

I hear that, i think if it was just a jar ofclear water, it would end up a warm jar of clear water. I love me some sun tea, but without the tea, its just warm water.

[Roundyround]

in my limited experience with the nuke treatment, it is very similar to making hot brewed tea. you quickly get color and taste components from the oak, but no fundamental change in the spirit itself, like time will do. imo you are adding only an oak flavor to the spirit, which is a good thing and makes a drinkable spirit quickly.but it doesn't have the same affect as letting time change the inherent composition of the spirit. imo white dog that sits without oak exposure also has a considerable change in texture and taste if allowed to "age" a few months. this is a good process, but it is flavoring only.

[tickle]

in my limited experience with the nuke treatment, it is very similar to making hot brewed tea. you quickly get color and taste components from the oak, but no fundamental change in the spirit itself, like time will do. imo you are adding only an oak flavor to the spirit, which is a good thing and makes a drinkable spirit quickly.but it doesn't have the same affect as letting time change the inherent composition of the spirit. imo white dog that sits without oak exposure also has a considerable change in texture and taste if allowed to "age" a few months. this is a good process, but it is flavoring only.

Ahh, i see the connection now. And i do agree with the tea anology now,

Back to the nuke. I am very happy with 2 or 3 runs. Interesting to try one or two runs and some time...perhaps it would cut required time. But so far, nuke is enough for me! But using this method to build stock will allow for more experiment time!

[FullySilenced]

Dnderhead,

My reply was not directed at your post, but more in general I have always thought of this procedure as supplemental. Use it when you need it, otherwise use the conventional practices. Could this be someones only coloring/flavoring/ageing method? Yes but only if it produces something that tastes good and fills the distillers needs - varied as they are.


FS

[shawn2974]

I think if we take the best white and run it through 3 cycles of nuke treatment , filter, then bottle and age for at least 6 months to a year we would have an outstanding product. Nonetheless I can build stock until then

[Bushman]

I like the idea that the dialog is being raised and people are asking questions, brainstorming is a processes at the beginning of something new that may lead to a better mouse trap. I have often quoted the old saying " one experiment is worth a thousand opinions". Until someone tries the tea bags are we just guessing?

I also think most of us are saying the same thing but stating it slightly different. I am glad Dunder joined in as I think he has some valid points and I believe Fully Silence is saying the same thing which is what I stated earlier.

The distiller I talked to here in Washington uses ultra sonic methods for smoothing and aging but then puts it in barrels for 3-4 years to finish the product. I think this is the direction I am going to head and I like the idea of kick starting it and making sure what I am putting into the barrels is a good quality before hand as I am not ready to totally abandon the barrel aging process.

[Bushman]

Just checking this is definitely one of the livelier topics we have had and probably one of the more controversial but 8 days running and over 144 posts. I think all of us are going to learn from this thread one way or the other!

[Buccaneer Bob]

Until someone tries the tea bags are we just guessing?

Actually, I wasn't thinking about tea bags so much as pieces of oak, fruit wood, etc., in liquor.

Basically you put the liquor with oak pieces in a large jar with enough headspace to create some pressure or vacuum. Put the jar out in the sun, and let the sun heat up the liquor or excite the molecules or whatever. You could have a tight seal on the jar until around 2:00-4:00 PM, building up some pressure and forcing alcohol into the wood. Crack the seal at 2:00-4:00 PM and reseal. Then, as the liquor cools later in the evening, you'd get a vacuum that sucks the alcohol laden with tannins and other wood flavors back out of the wood.

Similar kind of deal, just using sunlight instead of microwaves.

[mash rookie]

I would set some out in the sun but my neighbor might swipe it. And yes, it may work well too.

in my limited experience with the nuke treatment, it is very similar to making hot brewed tea. you quickly get color and taste components from the oak, but no fundamental change in the spirit itself, like time will do. imo you are adding only an oak flavor to the spirit, which is a good thing and makes a drinkable spirit quickly.but it doesn't have the same affect as letting time change the inherent composition of the spirit. imo white dog that sits without oak exposure also has a considerable change in texture and taste if allowed to "age" a few months. this is a good process, but it is flavoring only.

I agree that it is speeding up the oak soak process without the time allowed for chemical change that occurs over time.

Artificially aging Madeira has been going on for centuries using accelerated heating/cooling cycles over oak and is fairly well known. The main claim of his patent is to increase the contact and penetration of the alcohol with wood using heat/pressure cycles. I think he is probably right about that but how this is different from other methods of achieving the same end is lost on me. Oak chips, small barrels, pumping over an extraction column, etc. will do the same thing. All of these will help trap fusels and other long chain compounds and add extracted oak sugars and flavors….but this won't help the oxidation or esterification of organic acids to improve taste. I have read that the general consensus of "tasters" is that the alcohols produced through artificial aging are smoother and "better" but lack the complexity of long ages spirits. I am surprised he didn't add oxygenation to his menu. I think it would help.

I don't think using microwaved heating and cooling cycles is in any way a violation of his patent (assuming he gets it) and I would suggest you might want to try bubbling air into the mix between cycles and see what that does. Excitation of the molecules in the company of oxygen could be just the thing.
Max`Vino

I remarked to Bushman on the phone that with bubblers, ultra sonic and now microwaving being explored the next logical step for speed aging is learning methods for pre-treating oak. Much of the success you are enjoying is related to the use of JD chips that do not leave a woody flavor. Something I have encouraged for some time.

I did a Micro distillery tour a year or so ago. They were just releasing their small batch / small barrel bourbon. They swore they could call it bourbon even though they are in WA. We tasted their small barrel whiskey. YUK It tasted like wood to me.

So... Lets explore removing tannins from fresh charred oak instead of using JD barrel chips or chunks. That would be valuable to the micro distillery industry that is trying to get their product to market before they go broke.

[bowhunt76]

Until someone tries the tea bags are we just guessing?

Actually, I wasn't thinking about tea bags so much as pieces of oak, fruit wood, etc., in liquor.

Basically you put the liquor with oak pieces in a large jar with enough headspace to create some pressure or vacuum. Put the jar out in the sun, and let the sun heat up the liquor or excite the molecules or whatever. You could have a tight seal on the jar until around 2:00-4:00 PM, building up some pressure and forcing alcohol into the wood. Crack the seal at 2:00-4:00 PM and reseal. Then, as the liquor cools later in the evening, you'd get a vacuum that sucks the alcohol laden with tannins and other wood flavors back out of the wood.

Similar kind of deal, just using sunlight instead of microwaves.

Or step it up with a solar oven maybe......

[Bushman]

Until someone tries the tea bags are we just guessing?

Actually, I wasn't thinking about tea bags so much as pieces of oak, fruit wood, etc., in liquor.

Basically you put the liquor with oak pieces in a large jar with enough headspace to create some pressure or vacuum. Put the jar out in the sun, and let the sun heat up the liquor or excite the molecules or whatever. You could have a tight seal on the jar until around 2:00-4:00 PM, building up some pressure and forcing alcohol into the wood. Crack the seal at 2:00-4:00 PM and reseal. Then, as the liquor cools later in the evening, you'd get a vacuum that sucks the alcohol laden with tannins and other wood flavors back out of the wood.

Similar kind of deal, just using sunlight instead of microwaves.

Or step it up with a solar oven maybe......

I meant tea bag method with oak!

[FullySilenced]

Solar ovens can generate 100's of degree temperatures depending on reflector type and size... not sure but a cost effective control issue may be something you would run into...at the hobby level anyways