Lets talk whiskey aging, let the debates begin!!

[baron4406]

Last year I was the 44 year old rookie. I entered this new hobby full of enthusiasm and newbie stupidity. After a year of making runs I was hooked, some of my 6 month old UJSSM wows people at parties ( I'm in a circle of friends who make wine and beer), at the last one compared back to back with a big name commercial whiskey it literally blew it away. Even people who didn't drink whiskey commented on how incredible mine tasted. The store bought hootch was tasteless and sharp on the tongue. Again this was 6 month old sugarhead made by a total rookie.
Over the winter I lurked on HD, I was drawn to guys who pushed the envelope-you know who they are. I had some UJSSM aging and was constantly tasting it. The more I read about the "proper" way, the more confused I got. Why?
You distill on a pot still. Theory tell you its very primitive but it works. Single runs are low ABV so you do double runs. Still its a pot still and you get smearing of heads and tails. This tasted as white dog was a little harsh. The "quality" whiskey and scotch makers all pot still, it gives you then most flavor.
You distill on a column or reflux still, high abv, most of the flavor is washed out.......or is it. Enter Odin and even Ian Smiley who both say you can make whiskey on a reflux still at high abv. They say you just take off foreshots slow, take off heads slow, and just take the hearts. So very little smearing of heads and tails. This whiskey makes and very drinkable white dog.
See where I'm going here? I have 3 gallon jugs of Ujssm aging. The best tasting one so far? The one that was heavily oaked and was the worst tasting stuff I put away. In fact I only put it away as an experiment.
So if your gonna age whiskey, its better to smear it up a little bit pot still style and put it away funky, as the months go by those off flavors, become character. So after two years what would taste better and be more complex? The hearts only stuff, or the funky stuff?
Not wanting to start a flame war, but can anyone see the contradictions here? The big whiskey makers do all grain and they don't make any real cuts so its darn funky, so how can they end up with a total flavorless final product? It was sitting on oak for 3 to 8 years. Something isn't right here. Is it possible in a 50 gallon barrel there isn't enough oak contact? I actually TRIED to over oak my stuff this year (4 large charred sticks in a gallon jog) and all it did was get smoother. That was on charred oak. Is the over oaking problem from toasted oak? I tried some of my UJSSM on JD Chips last year and I over oaked it big time so I know what that tastes like.
I've rambled enough. Some of the results I've gotten trample some pretty sacred cows. In the end its the final product, does it really matter how you got it there?

[Coyote]

Barron wrote " In the end its the final product, does it really matter how you got it there?"

My answer is NOPE

One of the really fun part of this hobby is being able to experiment. You don't have to produce
the very same product every time, as long as you are learning and you enjoy what your hard
earned dollars are producing then that is really all that matters.

I often oak heavy to med charred 7/8" by 7/8" by 8" oak sticks as many as I can get in a gallon jar.
Test often after a 2 month period in the dark, generally find at 3 to 4 months we like it fine.
Often I reused those same oak sticks 2 or 3 times adding vanilla beans and cinnamon sticks, and toss
a raisin in for fun.

If your happy with the end results then that is all that matters.

Coyote

[Jimbo]

... compared back to back with a big name commercial whiskey it literally blew it away. Again this was 6 month old sugarhead made by a total rookie.

Awesome!

I have 3 gallon jugs of Ujssm aging. The best tasting one so far? The one that was heavily oaked and was the worst tasting stuff I put away. In fact I only put it away as an experiment.
So if your gonna age whiskey, its better to smear it up a little bit pot still style and put it away funky, as the months go by those off flavors, become character.

AMEN Brother! I just wrote on this very thing in another thread 5 minutes ago. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p7079236

Over oaking is less a problem, the darker you toast or char the wood. A medium or light toast or sticks charred on one side with exposed raw wood on the others will make your hooch taste like wood. Woody. Its not a pleasant thing. Also, new oak adds more sugars, vanillans etc. So make a sweeter drink. Used barrels, JD staves that have been sucked dry for several years etc. will make a nice drink too but take longer and make a lighter less sweet whiskey.

[okie]

I have to say, I'm glad you posted this. I made scotch in a pot still for the first time last year and it was burned in my boiler. Had a funky burned taste. I tried everything to remove the taste and toasted oak made a change I didn't like. Burned oaky scotch. I filtered it with a carbon filter which removed a lot of it plus flavor. Then I charred some oak sticks I had and let it soak with that scotch.

I think the charred removes funky. Toasted adds flavor and has to be watched, but charred removes funk and slowly adds flavor. Just my experience. I know others disagree so I say, try it.

Congrats on the great product. Makes me want to make some.

[junkyard dawg]

The big whiskey makers do all grain and they don't make any real cuts so its darn funky, so how can they end up with a total flavorless final product?

You pose a very interesting question. There are some seeming contradictions. I'm not sure I'd call the big whiskey makers flavorless... but, I'd say the difference is very much like a homegrown tomato. Its almost an apples and oranges comparison and thinking too much about it can drive you bananas...

so... Big producers have streamlined productions that take advantage of every efficiency and return on shareholder investment is often more important than superior quality. Thats true for tomatoes and whiskey. So, in the same way that you can't even compare a vine ripe homegrown tomato to a hard pink engineered product of a tomato at local IGA... Its hard to compare commercial whiskey to whiskey made with quality first and foremost.

[baron4406]

Some great comments, I was expecting to be flamed but hoped i would at least spurred debate. BTW the whiskey we tried it with was two versions, JD Devils cut and George Dickel. I'm stunned by the comments I got with my stuff. All grain guys are scoffing at me for sure. Don't shoot me ok? I'm into all grain beer making and will do lots of all grain Bourbon and Rye this year. Yes I made some fine stuff last year but as far as I'm concerned, that stuff is now my benchmark to make even finer whiskey. I've put a bug in my wife's ear and hopefully a barrel is coming soon.
Glad to see other comments about charred oak. I mean I loaded that funky jar up with 4 big pieces and a handful of tiny charred chunks, I was just seeing what happens to heasdy,tailsy stuff after alot of charred oak. I'm still kinda stunned. You should see the color of that jar, its the darkest, most beautiful stuff I've seen I may just quick age my best stuff this year and use my less than good stuff for aging. If that doesn't upset a few apple carts I'd be surprised.
BTW jimdo64 just read your post, ironic we made these posts so close together. What you said in that post is what was in my head. Glad to see some HD minds think alike!! Maybe we will start a trend here lol

[Jimbo]

All grain guys are scoffing at me for sure.

Nope. Im an all grain guy, and not scoffing at all! Looks like youre making some damn fine hooch, and for that

Im embarking in my first sugar head at the moment, LOL. Little backasswards I am I guess. I have 25 lbs of spent grain from a bourbon I made over the weekend, and instead of dumping it in the compost like I usually do, I rehydrated it with 16 lbs of sugar in 12 gallons of backset and water. Its bubbling furiously, cant wait to see how it turns out.

[junkyard dawg]

Nothing wrong with a little sugar now and then. used judiciously it really helps insure good yields without disrupting flavors.

Jimdo, That kind of wash you are making is the kind of thing that I think really comes out nice when its run with Smileys reflux method. If you have the means to do a stripping run and then add crystal malt or what ever grain to the spirit run... Great stuff. I run this in a double boiler, but one could use that nuklear whiskey method to make a 'tea' from crystal malt to add to the boiler if distilling on the grain would be a problem. You still get good flavor and very 'clean' distillate.

[Jimbo]

Nice! Thanks JD for the tips. I have lots of crystal malts around (beer brewer too). Im a simple potstiller, so dont know about these reflux or other methods but Ill do some searches on here. THanks again.

[Black Eye]

Jimbo,

Ya know, I think I saw your earlier thread and I was wondering what the hell you were doing with sugar, totally didn't sound like something you'd do from the impression I get from your posts. I'd be interested to know how this came out, compared to the previous batch.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,

Ya know, I think I saw your earlier thread and I was wondering what the hell you were doing with sugar, totally didn't sound like something you'd do from the impression I get from your posts. I'd be interested to know how this came out, compared to the previous batch.

haha, really? No I never did sugarheads but was never judgemental or critical or anyone doing them. I guess I did yell at a couple guys for bumping an otherwise good AG recipe tho.... LOL. Only because they thought the SG wasnt high enough when it was just fine.

Anyway, ya, Ill let you know how it goes. Im pretty damn excited about it actually. New stuff is always fun!

[baron4406]

Gonna be fun to see your results of the sugar head Jimdo, I wasn't even gonna mess with sugar head washes this year but that darn Odin and his mad scientist experiments from rye bread and corn flakes made me want to try out more stuff. I get all the sugar i want for free and yes I need it for wine making but I don't mind making some good sipping shine with it either.

[Braz]

... but, I'd say the difference is very much like a homegrown tomato. Its almost an apples and oranges comparison and thinking too much about it can drive you bananas...

Reference to four different fruits in a short sentence and a half. Well played sir, well played indeed.

[baron4406]

... but, I'd say the difference is very much like a homegrown tomato. Its almost an apples and oranges comparison and thinking too much about it can drive you bananas...

Reference to four different fruits in a short sentence and a half. Well played sir, well played indeed.

Gotta raise your glass to a man who knows that technically a tomato is a fruit...... very well played sir

[BoomTown]

hmmm. I'm inclinde to support your approach. A little smearing adds a bit to the volume and seems to be compensated for with barrel time. I'm a bit concerned with the tartness, the sharpness of some of the stuff I put in a barrel in January, but then it's definately differnet than what I put in the barrel, much softer taste, and more fruity, and less bite. I'm looking forward the Christmas, it'll be 11 months old then.

How's your stuff doing...I see this post is from 2013, your stuff (if it survived this long) ought to be a pretty good measure of what I can expect.

[Brendan]

Boom, Ive been running a comparison this year...I did a heap of mashes of the same all grain bourbon recipe. I did a few runs as a single pass on the plated column with 3 plates, and I did another batch as a double pot run.

I thought the same as the OP in this thread, that I had to cut rough and smear those early tails in there. As expected, the single run column stuff was much cleaner for the first few months while the double pot batch was quite rough on the nose.

Now at the 6 month mark, the column stuff smells quite light but in no way unpleasant. The pot stuff I'm really excited about...those harsh characters have smoothed/rounded and that beautiful vanillin is coming though. Looking to age for 12 months or more, but I can already verify the benefit to longer term ageing on those smeared tails. Just boosts the complexity of flavours in the spirit

[DAD300]

I distill above 90% on the column and blend at a high ABV...separate all the components into small containers and add what I perceive as the right amount of tails back to the hearts container(s). Very early, and with some recipes the very late tails can really change/add flavor. Then there are tails that seem oily or cloudy. Thrash them...

I've aged several dif ways...chips, staves, charred, baked to grey, in glass, exposed to light, in the dark, and even in small barrels. The longest I've got aging is just over a year in a small barrel. Time is good for your product if you can. No doubt about it.

Each is different! Then it comes down to what you like!

[Brendan]

It's interesting stuff DAD, the distilling whiskey on a reflux column and blending at the end. I remember reading a post I think by Odin, and then got into it myself. Haven't had to worry so much with the plated column, as the fractions are kind of semi smeared depending on run speed, kind of a hybrid operation :p There's definitely quality whiskey characters in those early tails, and nothing but time can make them shine