Dispelling a myth.Why you can make whiskey in a reflux colum

[mash rookie]

Dispelling a myth. AKA Why you can make whiskey in a reflux column but cant make make neutral in a pot still.
You can not make whiskey from tomato paste but you can make neutral from grain. Confused?

It is a myth that you must use a pot still to make whiskey or good whiskey. With the risk of stepping on some “traditional toes” I will explain why I can make better whiskey with a fractioning column than a pot still.

Starting with your wash, what ever you ferment has particular characteristics. Some washes contain higher amounts of nasties. Great example, turbo yeast ferments. Some washes have greater amounts fusels, ie Rum, Whiskeys etc. Some washes contain more lower boiling point alcohols. (Heads) All washes contain most alcohols in varying percentages. Fusel oils vary by ferment content. Most but not all flavor congeners are located in the fusels.
WHAT is in your wash is what you get! Period. You wont get whiskey from a tomato paste wash or turbo yeast in a pot still. There is plenty good reason you get crap when pushing your wash SG.(from us and from your still) Higher gravity ferments and the nutrients necessary for them create more crap than a lower gravity wash. IE;Turbo etc.
All these different parts we call Fractions. Fore shots, Heads, Hearts and tails all contain a variety of different alcohols, fusels and the different flavor congeners that hide among them. Again, different ferments will have different fractions in varying amounts.

Okay, now that you are on board there and understand that your wash has different components lets talk about distilling.

When distilling, Fractions do not magically disappear. OR magically appear! Lets look at a grain ferment. Run carefully through a pot still, fores are discarded, heads are taken, hearts are taken and only very deep tails avoided. Commonly all tails are taken. After dilution, It is run again with the same procedure. Results? Damn fine whiskey!

Why cant you make neutral with a pot still? Well you can, with a really clean wash and if you are willing to run it ten times. Without reflux you are getting one distillation cycle maybe two from a pot still. It takes close to twenty distillations cycles to make perfect tasteless alcohol.
Pot stills are better suited for whiskey or rum because they are not real good at separating fractions. They lack the ability to allow for equilibrium to occur or even partially maintained during take off.

With a reflux column equilibrium

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During distillation in a forced reflux column or a column run so slow as to be in a total reflux state, different alcohol fractions find their comfort zone in the column and settle in.
This is Equilibrium.
Starting at the bottom and consisting of water and alcohol the lower Boiling point fractions find there way farther up the column as higher volatiles, occupy the higher spaces. On a very tall column of 20 plates or more they will separate quite well with little help. On shorter columns forced reflux is used to create greater evaporation cycles to enrich the mixture.
(typically using a dephlagometer or reflux condenser)
The evaporation cycle occurs at the surface of liquid at each plate or packing surface. The greater the evaporation cycles the greater the enrichment.
This is Reflux ratio. By using a high reflux ratio during batch distillation ABV can be raised and fractions can be taken off separately with some success. Key to successful column distillation is establishing this equilibrium and taking off slowly enough as to not disturb it, what ever that equilibrium mixture happens to be. Tall columns will provide greater separation of fractions than short.

can be established and reasonably maintained during take off allowing for ALL fractions to be taken off in the order of boil. Much better separation of fractions is achieved. Careful collecting of these fractions (or just using a whole crap load of jars) leaves the master distiller to deal with the art of blending.

Typical blending of neutral or vodka distillate would include some late heads and avoid even the earliest tails. Even a great whiskey ferment distilled to a high % and collected in this manor will have middle jars that are devoid of flavor that can be blended as a neutral.

Blending reflux whiskey is a little different. Typically heads are carefully avoided, hearts are blended with early tails then diluted to oaking strength before deep tails are added. Deep tails are added carefully by taste until the edge is found. The slight bitter edge that will smooth over time on oak.
The master distiller doesn't just run a still, he blends his product for oaking.

Yes. Some of my pals (maybe many) will argue I am full of **** but, I will put my blending up against their pot still any day. Of course assuming we are using the same wash.

I believe it is about understanding the distillation process and that better equipment makes better product in the right hands.

MR
stirring the pot

[Richard7]

Okay, I'm with ya, But still being a little wet behind the ears let me ask you something.
If I am shooting for a whiskey in a reflux column, and have the ability to detune by shortening my column and cutting down on my reflux, is that a good move?
Right now I mostly make a faux wheat whiskey. Its a cereal/sugar-head but I really like the flavor. I do not detune like I talked about above. And I leave in my packing (I guess about two and a half feet in a two inch column under a Nixon-Stone)
I don't run it real slow (steady stream) so I seem to get good flavor.

So to sum it up... Would you detune or go with the packed column?
I know everyone's taste is different, for example I don't really care for oaking (I know, what's wrong with me )Just curious about detuning.

[jarheadshiner]

I'm soaking wet behind the ears! What you say MR makes perfect sense. In my case, it is more of an intimidation factor. I would venture to say everyone cuts their teeth on a potstill before moving on to more complicated rigs. The fabrication and equipment it takes to build/run a reflux column or plate still is a bit overwhelming. With a potstill half of the work is done for you, as far as blending goes, and your main concern is how much heat you're applying. I know at this point in my very limited experience it is much easier to let the still do the work than relying on my novice blending skills to get a decent whiskey. With a trained nose and pallet I have no doubt that you would go head to head with anyone's whiskey/rum. Maybe out of tradition this is how whiskey is "supposed" to be made or it could be that it's just easier to let the potstill do most of the "blending" for you. My humble thoughts on the matter.

[MitchyBourbon]

I don't doubt that someone with good skills could approximate a whiskey, probably good enough to satisfy most whiskey drinkers. However, I don't think that a reflux column could ever truly duplicate the infinitely gradual smearing of congeners that is produced with a pot still.

With respect
MitchyBourbon

[thecroweater]

This is a truly excellent post MR and I guess even moderately experienced distillers know this to be a fact. Speaking for myself here but I guess the reason we lie or perhaps with hold the truth to noob's is because the new distiller wants to produce a passable spirit that can be consumed within say a month or two. I do some times back blend certain tail fractions even from my plated still simply because I may want some of the flavors that fractioned off in that cut but its tricky and takes some experience or blind luck to get ya blending spot on first go. I've made nice rum with a reflux still but have never had great success with whiskey the few times I tried it (time might have made the difference). At another place I have often given the advise when asked by noob's about this : That you can make whiskey in a reflux still and vodka in a pot, you can also eat soup with a shifting spanner but it might not be the best tool for the job . I guess to be fair it should be pointed out how to make a flavored spirit this way as long as the newbie realizes that a reflux still is many times slower than a pot or plate because they are separating their wash down into an unnecessary amount of fractions given that to achieve the required flavors they will be blending these fractions back (undoing the work of their still). So yes I can be done and with experience produce (perhaps the same or even better to their taste) product, but a lot more time and energy was used to reach a similar goal.
Personally the reason I like fast running (large column)stills has nothing to do with greed but the more time I and energy I spend running the still is less I can spend developing and fermenting washes

[myles]

Nicely explained MR. It is also true that a lot of commercial low quality whisky is actually made as you described. Taken off as fractions from a column and then re-blended. Sometimes multiple take off points from a continuous process.

With the pot still the blending is done inside the still. The distiller has some control through power management and doing 1, 2 or 3 runs, but generally there is less POST DISTILLATION blending involved.

With a consistent recipe you can fine tune how you run your pot still to the point where your product comes out of the still already blended to the way you want it. Just a different approach.

Personally I reserve my reflux column to make a tasteless base alcohol that is then an ingredient in other processes. If I want vodka to drink I make it on the pot still, but it is not neutral, it still retains some residual flavour.

[lampshade]

An interesting side note: Many guitarists prefer valve amplifiers (UK) or tube amplifiers (US) over the transistor amplifier to produce their music. Supposedly, the older valve/tube amplifier introduces rich distortion, which is absent from the cleaner transistor amplifier.

This is not perfectly analogous to MR's approach, since he re-introduces the flavors from the feints back into the hearts. But I though it might be interesting.

[Richard7]

An interesting side note: Many guitarists prefer valve amplifiers (UK) or tube amplifiers (US) over the transistor amplifier to produce their music. Supposedly, the older valve/tube amplifier introduces rich distortion, which is absent from the cleaner transistor amplifier.

This is not perfectly analogous to MR's approach, since he re-introduces the flavors from the feints back into the hearts. But I though it might be interesting.

Lampshade, that is quite the comparison, I don't play (wish I could) but I see where you are coming from.

[lampshade]

I guess to be fair it should be pointed out how to make a flavored spirit this way as long as the newbie realizes that a reflux still is many times slower than a pot

So that this noob appreciates your point and can put it into perspective: How long is the total run time for three pot distillations versus one spirit reflux distillation?

[lampshade]

This may be a better analogy: Which do you prefer to hear, the sound from an expensive old violin, or from a synthesizer, which in theory, can accurately re-create the sound from multiple individual and unique (different) violins. Note that this question is different from, "which would you prefer to play", or "which would you prefer to buy (make) and store?"

[thecroweater]

I guess to be fair it should be pointed out how to make a flavored spirit this way as long as the newbie realizes that a reflux still is many times slower than a pot

So that this noob appreciates your point and can put it into perspective: How long is the total run time for three pot distillations versus one spirit reflux distillation?

Ok I can only speak for my stills so my 2" pot will strip a 50 ltr keg/ around 13.5 gal in say 45 min. the spirit run will take around an hr. My 4" plated still will run a 50 keg a little over an hr say 1hr 15 min give or take but that's it done. My 2" reflux will take between 6 to 8 hrs to go though 50 ltrs, cause there are faster reflux stills than mine but that will be at or near azeotrope
PS : guys not saying I agree with your analogies but if you think about it you are applying them the wrong way round, it is the reflux still that makes a pure refined spirit

[heartcut]

Good post, MR. I make some fine whiskey and rum with a 2-1/2" packed CM with the coil in the dephleg position at around 3 qt/ hr. Wouldn't call it better or worse than the (good) home potstilled spirits I've tried, but I can control it more consistently (compared to me running a potstill, could just be relative skill). I used to detune it for flavored spirits, but forgot to pull some of the packing once and didn't notice a difference in the taste. The hearts are really mild and the really intense taste comes at the last few jars, with the dephleg holding back the nasty tasting stuff, out of a 12 gal run I get about 1/2 qt tails. Belive I'll have some...
Tube amps do sound fine with electric guitars, but so does Yo-Yo Ma's 17th Century cello.

[lampshade]

I guess to be fair it should be pointed out how to make a flavored spirit this way as long as the newbie realizes that a reflux still is many times slower than a pot

So that this noob appreciates your point and can put it into perspective: How long is the total run time for three pot distillations versus one spirit reflux distillation?

Ok I can only speak for my stills so my 2" pot will strip a 50 ltr keg/ around 13.5 gal in say 45 min. the spirit run will take around an hr. My 4" plated still will run a 50 keg a little over an hr say 1hr 15 min give or take but that's it done. My 2" reflux will take between 6 to 8 hrs to go though 50 ltrs, cause there are faster reflux stills than mine but that will be at or near azeotrope
PS : guys not saying I agree with your analogies but if you think about it you are applying them the wrong way round, it is the reflux still that makes a pure refined spirit

Thanks. OK, so you are saying it takes twice as long to do a reflux distillation than is takes to do 3 pot distillations. That is good to know.

[lampshade]

PS : guys not saying I agree with your analogies but if you think about it you are applying them the wrong way round, it is the reflux still that makes a pure refined spirit

I wasn't applying it to any particular way...

[mash rookie]

OKAY NOW WE ARE HAVING FUN!

Where is every body else? I can take on more than three or four of you guys!

I said I can make BETTER WHISKEY with my still than a pot still can. My four inch CM fractioning still can run a 12 gallon whiskey charge start to finish in an hour and a half. Two hours with warm up. I doubt a pot still can do both strip and spirit run in that short time. Particularly when you add in draining and refill boiler. My reflux still is a top fuel dragster racing an old Deuce coupe with dual quads.

Thank you for your respect Mitchy but you are my first bout.
Infinite gradual smearing? I can throw it back in and give it a stir. Its smeared. Fractions are difficult to separate but mix easily. One point five seconds and they are smeared. I just get to control the smearing.

Crow. You are next amigo. I have all ready addressed the speed issue. Lets line up at the starting gate. Tune up your pot still. You will need it.

Blending is an art that anybody can learn. Its not that tricky and doesn't require blind luck. With a little practice one can easily learn to find the bitter congeners and avoid them when blending. Absolute control! I can teach anybody include stubborn old knuckle heads.

Myles, My friend, You too are guilty of traditional thinking. Do NOT confuse or associate my method with continuous distillation. There is NO similarity. I am still batch distilling. I just have better control. With the ability to apply 100% reflux I compress heads better than a pot still. With the ability to maintain good equilibrium all fractions are taken in the order of BP. I have the ability to “smear” them as I choose.

Starting with the best wash ever prepared by any of our finest. (preferably Dunder) we both have the same fractions to work with. With a pot still you are at the mercy of how it puts out. With a fractioning still you control it.

Come on guys! Lets have some fun. You know I love you. Bring it on. Its been depressing around here lately.

Next post. How to blend like an expert!

[Usge]

Hey there Mashy. Not hanging 'round as much as before. But, have a couple of observations.

As to the 'myth"...there's never been a myth that you can't make whiskey in a reflux still. Uncle Jessie himself uses one to single run whiskey and prefers the taste of it. I'm not sure that's a revelation to those who already do it and prefer it that way. And cuts/blending is long known to be important to finding your end result regardless of what you are running or taste preferences are.

As far as refluxed more highly separated fractions...make cutting and blending easier for whiskey flavors and making a "better" whiskey. That's an opinion. I respect your opinion..and certainly if it's getting good results for you or anybody else...more the better! Not gonna argue that.

What I can say is...in my experience....when you highly reflux/fraction whiskey mash/wash, you compress the impurities into more concentrated, smaller fractions in the front and backend of the run. As compared to running "less" reflux where those fractions would extend further into the run..and taper as they went. In my experience/opinion...it's easier to blend those longer transitions...than it is..to try and measure in more concentrated/compressed impurities. Because anybody who's ever crossed the line with heads/tails knows...that it doesn't take much to ruin a whole batch. I'm interested to hear your take on it (blending) though. Sounds like it's producing good results for you.

In so far as the rest...that's easy, cause I've never been satisfied with anything I've made. That's what keeps me going....I can always do it better. If you've come up with a method to make whiskey that you truly love and works better for you than anything else you've tried and you've found your nirvana...my hats off to you. And thank you for sharing your methods. I think we'd all learn more if we could all sit around a table with a jar and pass it around. Hard to do over the internet.

[DAD300]

I do this all the time with my faux cereal/cornflakes bourbon. I run for hearts at 92-94% and collect tails down to 80%. All the while collecting heads in 8oz cups, hearts in 16oz cups and tails in 8oz cups.

Then after it's cooled and tasted I blend a tiny amount of tails back in before oaking it.

I think I have more control than had I pot stilled.

Similar for rum, except I take a lot of the early tails, oak and spice it for mixed drinks! My version of Capt Morgan's SH^&T.

[ErnieV]

You looking for a fight MR. Seems like you're not getting one. Great post, can't wait to get the money together to make my new still.

[Dnderhead]

"I blend a tiny amount of tails back in "
only thing I see wrong it no control over tales.
with a pot still the tales keep getting stronger until they are over whelming.
with a reflux still it all or nothing,tales are concentrated and no "light tales"
sort of like adding water to coffee thats been on all day.

[goose eye]

makein likker aint the hard part. all yall new likker dicks. pride will get you caught


so im tole

[rumbuff]

I had read Odins post on making whiskey in a reflux still, and I thought it sounded good. You've broken it down into the blending, which is something I don't have much experience with. I'm almost done my new 3" CM still, and I'll try to make some whiskey and rum with it. Looking forward to the post on blending!

[thecroweater]

In defense of the general mod advise
Hmm , yes I could smell the sweet taint of bait well before I posted but I thought I'd Have a dip anyways . Anyhow I don't think that was a technical knockout round so here goes. My point was that I Would be somewhat reluctant to give this advise to noobs. I surely would have guessed that you would have an all singing, all dancing 4 or 6" perlite packed reflux column with vapor speeds off the charts but the average noob has a 2" boka or worse still one of those crappy HBS hurry up and wait reflux jobbies . The other point, also particular to noobs is my point about fella's starting out tend to be in a hurry to get something drinkable quickly. Now just using hearts is the fastest way to get a drinkable whiskey or rum, sure the flavor might be light on but blended tails although adding some really complexed pleasant flavor and profile will almost certainly need some aging, just as you correctly pointed out

Mashrookie wrote
hearts are blended with early tails then diluted to oaking strength before deep tails are added. Deep tails are added carefully by taste until the edge is found. The slight bitter edge that will smooth over time on oak.
The master distiller doesn't just run a still, he blends his product for oaking.

fine for older hands but not generally what the new chums are hoping for

[mash rookie]

LOL. Not looking for a fight Ernie. Just having a little fun and trying to take guys minds off thinking about the big bad wolf coming after them.

Actually that is incorrect Sir Dunder. Tails are not concentrated like heads. There are actually more of them because they have not come off with hearts like with a pot still or plated flute with only four or five plates.

First to understand how a reflux column works. With the ability to achieve 100% reflux heads are concentrated before allowing any take off. After a reasonable reflux period where heads have been allowed to work there way up the column, take off is initiated by reducing reflux just enough for a reasonable flow rate. The truth is that heads are not actually compressed. There is less volume because hearts are not mixed with them. It allows for a cleaner distinction between heads and hearts as well. A more distinct cut point.

Like Dad300, I take off whiskey at a lower ABV, mine at 90-93% than my neutral (95%). That is rocket fast. It contains some but very little tails. Hearts are reasonably well concentrated, meaning that tails are held back until hearts are taken.

Even when refluxed at the same rate as the typical hearts run, tails will be of greater volume and taste cut points more pronounced. Tails are actually quite smooth and tasty until the very late jars.

Okay, Okay. I will start writing the blending description. Its really not that tough.

[drinkingdog]

In defense of the general mod advise
The other point, also particular to noobs is my point about fella's starting out tend to be in a hurry to get something drinkable quickly.

fine for older hands but not generally what the new chums are hoping for

Being a noob I agree some what with the first statement that it is nice to be able to create something drinkable. I don't agree with the second statement that just because we new to this hobby that is as far as we what to take this. What makes this new adventure so alluring is the fact it is an art. Whether the beautiful copper creation or the creation of a fine drink it is truly an art. Not all noobs are satisfied with some rot gut whiskey that you only have to swollow twice to keep down. Now to the second part to fine blending. It's all yours MR

[mash rookie]

In defense of the general mod advise
Hmm , yes I could smell the sweet taint of bait well before I posted but I thought I'd Have a dip anyways

Wait,....... wait for it.......... give him some line............ ok...ok..ok.... take up the slack.........
OKAY SET THE HOOK!.......... GOT EM SON!..... NOW REAL EM IN AND HIT HIM IN THE HEAD.

Just kidding Crow.

[Bushman]

In defense of the general mod advise
Hmm , yes I could smell the sweet taint of bait well before I posted but I thought I'd Have a dip anyways

Wait,....... wait for it.......... give him some line............ ok...ok..ok.... take up the slack.........
OKAY SET THE HOOK!.......... GOT EM SON!..... NOW REAL EM IN AND HIT HIM IN THE HEAD.

Just kidding Crow.

Sounds like a fishing story to me!

[johnhopper1957]

With a 2 inch boka with only 3 scrubbers in the top of the column, run it up take heads off as per normal then open up the needle valve. Take hearts at about 88% then when you come into tails stop your run as per normal. Takeoff rate for hearts is very fast.

Bring it back to 60% and oak it for 3 - 6 months and try it. It is a very good product.

You can make a very good whiskey or rum with a detuned reflux still with a bit of packing in it.

I agree with you MR.

[Usge]

Maybe I'm missing something. There has never been any dispute that people can run "detuned' reflux to make whiskey. Lots of people prefer it that way...always have..and the forums are full of such runs and advice about them. As I understood this thread, this was supposedly about something "new" or unique in the sense that reflux...produces sharp edged cuts...makes better whiskey through blending after the fact. And, as I see it, Odin's thread...is just the opposite..that good whiskey is made under FULL reflux (96%) (not detuned) flavorful whiskey. Ians book been around a long time. He runs his LM still detuned and doesn't equalize it. To me it just sounds like personal preference and observation...which is fine. (absolutely).

To me...ain't nothing wrong under the sun. If you think 96% with feints is the best whiskey you ever made....who am I to dispute that? I can offer my "opinion". But, that's all it is.

You drink and make what you like. I don't have a problem with it. You like it doubled, tripled, or singled. Don't matter to me.

[thecroweater]

yeah but I still says yaz are eatin soup with a monkey wrench

[mash rookie]

You are correct Usge. I am NOT DE-TUNING. I can see this is not going to be easy convincing some of you. What I am describing is a more exacting method that is not that tough. Lets find an analogy that I can get guys on board with. Or Not. The new guys will get this.

Crow, I can work with that. Good soup? Lousy soup? How about alphabet soup? Lets put a wrench to that. Consider fractions like alphabet blocks. Every one different and arranged correctly starts with A and ends with Z when placed in order.

When you make pot still soup you throw out A's, BCD&E's are set aside with some E's escaping into the alphabet soup. Some F's stayed behind. FGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUV's are thrown in to the bowl of soup. WXY are set aside as deep tails..Z is left in the boiler. Give or take a little on the front or end or back you have a mixed bowl. Again, you could not get them all seperated and some ABC's & WXYZ's are in the soup.

When making soup with a fractioning still you can be an executive chef for a four star restaurant. Taking the same ingredients you can make a soup that that is incredible. When you open the can the alphabets march out like little soldiers in order.

I start with six -eight jars. A quick calc of what you expect to collect will tell you what size of jars to collect in. The more cuts the easier the blending.
A's jump out. ALL- BCD's huddle together like snobby girls. You set them aside. EFG HJKL MNO QRS TUV WXY, are collected in different jars and numbered. Z again is left in the can.

Gotta run to the DR. Alphabet soup blending when I return. Wish me luck!