First time distiller at 3000 ft above sea level

[michalano]

I've just built my first still and I'm concerned about temperature control. I live in the mountains of northwest US at about 3000 feet. At that altitude what are the boiling points for ethanol and methanol. What is the safe range for consumption.

[Bushman]

According to my math water should boil at about 205F at 3000 feet, so at sea level it boils at 212F and if ethanol mixed in a wash is about 172F then a rough estimate would be 162F.

Most use temp as a gauge but you need to watch your rig as your running it and adjust accordingly.

[UtahViking]

I'm at an even higher altitude, almost 5000 ft, and honestly temperatures make little difference. If you're running a pot still just blast it on til you get output then dial it back to the desired stream.

Don't worry about temps.

[heartcut]

I'm at an even higher altitude, almost 5000 ft, and honestly temperatures make little difference. If you're running a pot still just blast it on til you get output then dial it back to the desired stream.

Don't worry about temps.

Same experience at 9000 feet in Colorado- your propane bill are lower unless it's winter.

[Geronimo]

Im at 10,200 feet in elevation........if I get a good fermentation Im usually starting to get the heads at about 177deg F or so. and a good hearts at about 179 to about 188 after that its dropping off to the tails pretty rapidly. But you have to remember that most stills are under a pressure like a pressure cooker......so your boiling temps are much higher than if you didnt have a closed system or pot..... Keep in mind that when its under a pressure the temps will be higher than if you read a chart as to what alcohol boils at not under pressure.

[Schmicter]

I've never read a still to be "under pressure like a pressure cooker" that sounds dangerous.

[Coyote]

A still is in fact a bomb, it is a pressure vessel.
A 15 gallon keg is about 18 inches wide and 26 or 28 inches tall
Then necked down to a 2" opening effectively building pressure.
Then necked down to a 1/2" opening - you plug something up
and you could wind up on the 5 o'clock news.

This is why you hear the old timers here say NEVER leave a
still unattended. Shit happens.

Burn down your house doing something illegal and your insurance
company will forget you ever met.

I run on electric and still have a fire sprinkler system in the Man Cave
because shit happens

Coyote

[Schmicter]

Right I understand it is under pressure if you plug something up. But the OP said "most stills are under pressure like a pressure cooker". That is simply not true, unless you plug something up, and has nothing to do with boiling temperatures.

[Coyote]

I disagree,
It has everything to do with boiling temps, as
steam expands greatly - thus your pressure.
Think tea kettle - boiling water creating enough pressure to
make the kettle whistle.

Pretty close in size, sized down, to the keg and 1/2" reduction example.
Someone COULD set up a keg and 1/2" outlet with no cooling and report back
to the group what happens. Won't be me.

Coyote

[Schmicter]

Well, we will just disagree. But, bad or inaccurate information on these forums is not a good thing. A still should not be under pressure and any pressure created from necked down fitting will not effect boiling temp....period

[theholymackerel]

A still should not be under pressure and any pressure created from necked down fitting will not effect boiling temp....period

Exactly.

A necked down fitting will only increase vapor speed.

[Geronimo]

of course its under pressure.... You are generating steam. If you do not have your holes in your pipes sealed up you will see the steam coming out...... That means there is pressure. It might only be 5 lbs pressure but its still there. If you understand atmospheric pressure you would realize that 5 lbs pressure is quite a bit when it comes to boiling temps. Example the air pressure at sea level is 14.7 Psi and at 10000 feet it is 10.1 PSI that almost 5 psi makes a huge difference in your boiling temps. Now if you put both of them under 5 psi and are keeping it there. Then under the same pressure in your vessel the boiling temps for alcohol is almost identical. If they were under no pressure from an inclosed system your boiling point would be much lower at the higher altitude.

[Schmicter]

Well, I am not going to continue to argue the point that increased pressure raises boiling temps. It does. But it does not apply to safe construction and operation of a still. And it should not be mentioned as an accepted fact that a still is a pressure cooker or anything like one. In fact, if your still is under ANY pressure it is unsafe and you should probably disassemble it immediately and correct the problem. It is true as you neck down your vapor speed increases, but to neck down enough to build any pressure it would be by a ridiculous amount. A still with vapor rising into a head then necking to a condenser does and will not cause pressure to build in the still
I am not going to waste much time on research, but I did find that tea kettle whistles blow at less than 1 psi and pressure cookers release at about 15 PSI. If you did make the mistake of necking down to get a vapor speed like a tea kettle and increase of pressure by 1 PSI your condenser would probably would need to be ridiculously huge to knock it down.

[JollyGoodFellow]

Barometric pressure affects the boiling points of liquids. This is true for water, ethanol, and the azeotrope. And, it's true that altitude changes affect barometric pressure. So, yes. Altitude affects the temperature readings you will get when you boil. In the same way, it affects condensation temperature. So, in a mostly-open boiler where you are measuring liquid temperature, you will probably see a difference based on altitude. BUT- if you have a necked down still all-crazy-like, you could build up barometric pressure on the outlet of the boiler, and that in turn would raise your liquid boiling temperature like you'd see at a lower altitude.

On the other hand, if you are measuring temperature at the top of the neck, which is open to atmosphere essentially, then you are trying to measure the condensation temperature of the liquid at atmospheric pressure. THAT will be different depending on whether you are at altitude or at sea level. Based on the top-of-neck temperature, the same recipe, cut at the exact same temperature but at different altitudes, will be different.

So, using a temp chart for boiling water at a particular altitude (=barometric pressure)
•To find the boiling point of the Ethanol: Multiply the water boiling point by: 0.81556
•To find the boiling point of the Azeotrope: Multiply the water boiling point by: 0.81415

reference: Ethanol producer's database: http://gillesenergies.webs.com/boilingpointaltitude.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

What this means is that temperatures for us high-altitude folks will probably, usually be lower than flat-landers. If you cut based on temperature, it matters. If you cut based on volumes, it shouldn't matter much at all. That's where we see discrepant advice on the thread.

And for the record, as long as vapor is moving, you shouldn't see a 'pressure cooker' effect. Heat creates vapor. Vapor moves. Use a big opening, vapor moves slowly like a big river. Use a small opening, vapor moves fast like a fire hose. Use a small enough opening, and pressure will start to build. Stop the vapor from moving but keep heating the source, and pressure builds up with nowhere to go. (Bad badaboom) In stills, vapor moves just fine until it hits a condenser. BUT, the vapor doesn't "stop" and use its energy to build up pressure when it gets there. The condenser is used to take the heat energy out of the vapor instead.

Hope that helps.

JollyGoodFellow

[Coyote]

This went a bit far afield but what I said was:

"A still is in fact a bomb, it is a pressure vessel.
A 15 gallon keg is about 18 inches wide and 26 or 28 inches tall
Then necked down to a 2" opening effectively building pressure.
Then necked down to a 1/2" opening - you plug something up
and you could wind up on the 5 o'clock news.

Low pressure steam can be dangerous
High pressure steam can be fatal

My point was SAFETY FIRST
I ALWAYS check that I can blow through everything before I start
Because once I discovered a mud wasps nest had been built in my liebig.

Coyote

[paridgerunner]

If you would place one hose from a manometer into the operating still and the other ambient you would see that the "pressure" inside the still is POSITIVE wrt-with refrence to - ambient.

[cornsqueezer]

If you would place one hose from a manometer into the operating still and the other ambient you would see that the "pressure" inside the still is POSITIVE wrt-with refrence to - ambient.

Why don't you do this experiment and give us some REAL DATA!!! If you get any readings and you

probably will they will be very low [ inches of water column/ mm of water column ]. I think you

are trying too hard to prove your point, which can confuse some of the new members here which

are thinking in pounds per square inch [psi] or kilo pascals [k pa]

Just so everyone knows the conversion and not to confuse!

1 pound per square inch = 27.6704523 inches of water

1 kilo pascal = 101.974428892 millimeters of water

[paridgerunner]

ME trying too hard to make MY point---- its not my post its not my question Im just agreeing that there is a pressure difference between a working still and ambient however I would be happy to stick a mamometer hose into my still next run-in about a week and take a pic of the delta P for you. but your grasp on basic physics is on you

[cornsqueezer]

ME trying too hard to make MY point---- its not my post its not my question Im just agreeing that there is a pressure difference between a working still still and ambient however I would be happy to stick a mamometer hose into my still next run-in about a week and take a pic of the delta P for you. but your grasp on basic psychics is on you

I apologize paridgerunner I got the posters mixed up . If you have the equipment

to take the measurements I would appreciate it if you would, Maybe it will clear up any questions

that people may have about pressure in your boiler or column.

[paridgerunner]

ok fellas here are the pics of the manometer readings the first is of everything ready to go but with no flame under it-it shows a difference of -1.0 Pascals with reference to ambient Im sure this is because of the delta T being less in the keg than ambient. the second pic is after a few mins with heat under the keg we now have a 1.6 P positive pressure in the still WRT ambient. Pic number 3 shows a difference of 4.3 P. at this point I am @ about 145 degrees in my still so I pulled the hose out but Im sure as the delta T increases so will the pressure difference even with the 1" "hole" ----the bigger the hole the less the difference would be so at some point if you kept increasing the hole until would be big enough to equalize the pressure and show no difference (think forced air heating system with single return ~vs~ balanced system with supply and return in every room) with a single return you would need to either undercut doors, install jumper ducts etc. to balance the pressure. same basic shit going on here depending on the size of the "hole" in the still

[paridgerunner]

other pics

[paridgerunner]

last one

[cornsqueezer]

Thanks for your time and effort, now we have true data.

[paridgerunner]

sure, although Im not really sure that is shows anything other than the fact that the pressure inside a working still is positive WRT ambient..... those numbers will be different depending on delta T and size of hole ~~~~~~~