Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

[multipazz]

Ahhhh Tatter Patch Kid, thanks....

you remind me, although my must were fermented in days, they were left to clear for weeks before racking.

allow the yeast to tidy up....

[MitchyBourbon]

I also find that my AG benefits from a good rest. I think there are some among us that fear infections can occur in an AG if it is, aloud to rest. I think that it is not that big a threat for an infection to originate after fermentation. The presence of alcohol is hostile to most infections. I think it is more likely that those who have experienced infections were infected at the beginning, prior to fermentation.

[Boda Getta]

Not questioning the importance of proper fermentation, but having toured several distilleries I question that 90% of the money is spent on fermentation equipment and 10% in distilling equipment. One poster hit the nail on the head when he wrote that fermenting for the same results every time is the hard part, but the equipment used is pretty simple... not so for the distilling equipment.

+90% of a commercial distillers money is tied up in whiskey aging in barrels.

BG

[LWTCS]

Not questioning the importance of proper fermentation, but having toured several distilleries I question that 90% of the money is spent on fermentation equipment and 10% in distilling equipment. One poster hit the nail on the head when he wrote that fermenting for the same results every time is the hard part, but the equipment used is pretty simple... not so for the distilling equipment.

+90% of a commercial distillers money is tied up in whiskey aging in barrels.

BG

+1
Not to mention that the entire pre distillation part of the operation is to keep the still well fed with beer every working day of the year. An empty boiler makes no money.

[shadylane]

I'll continue making heads cuts.
Things I've found to reduce the percentage of heads cuts are.
1. Low gravity ferments. By this I mean not much more than 1.07 SG. Preferably a little less
2. Enough nutrients for the yeast to finish the job without having to resort to cannibalization.
3. Temperature control.
4. let the yeast settle and rack the wash.
5. Let the low-wines air out for a day or two before redistilling.
6. If you wish to make a smaller heads cut, just wait a year or two before drinking.

Having said this I'll shut the hell up and continue reading. I learn more that way.
Nah, I'll just take another shot and call it a night.

[MitchyBourbon]

I would imagine that the equipment and annual salaries of the biochemists they employ might factor in there somewhere...

[Richard7]

I am kinda on the fence post with this one. I can see where careful fermenting can reduce the need for a heads cut, but I am nowhere near that good of a fermenter.
I am doing good to get a wash ready after 2 weeks of trying to keep the temps where the yeast are happy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying B.S. it can't be done..... Just I don't have the knowledge or the time to baby my ferment that well.
As I think about this stuff all the time, I am willing to learn all I can about this and apply it to reduce my heads cut but I feel I will always be better off throwing some heads in the feints jar!

This is why I spend so much time on the forum, I don't soak it all in, but I am learning all the time.

[goose eye]

All thangs being equal think that 90 10 is way off if you looking it from
a accounting stand point.


So I'm Tole

[woodshed]

As a point of reference Odin what are you considering low & high ferment temps? My heads cut is normally only 2% compared to the amount of my hearts cuts. I consider that to be pretty low.
And before some one jumps on the "maybe you aren't making your cuts right" wagon I've been doing this for a few decades now and am pretty damn sure I've got it down. Have often considered skipping the heads cut but I still notice a difference with smell, touch etc...

Woodshed
I wish I could get down to 2%. I too think the fermentation is a huge factor in the heads ratio. Care to share your recipe or twist on fermentation with us I now go way past the transition point as I make vodka with the fients.

AC

I do a secondary ferment at a different temp, with a yeast cultivated over time. Much slower than first ferment. Some would consider this a dirty yeast. Been workin a long time. Save wort to add to secondary.
This is only with my Bentfinger Bourbon recipe. Passed on from my dad. When he died we were at 6% just a few years ago. Tryin to honor his wish to bring likker to the masses.

[lampshade]

Consider that pro distillers don't make a Heads cut. They only distinguish between Fores, Hearts, and Tails.

This is an observation I made a few months back ... that pro whiskey distillers use the terms foreshots, hearts, strong feints and weak feints and their feints consist only of tails -- and not heads. This was treated as heresy. Now, I think, from what Odin has written, I might understand the disconnect... if the pro distillers are able to control their fermentation so as to produce minimal heads, then no heads are present when the cuts are made. Thus, there is no need for them to mention heads.

If I am correct, then maybe our distilling process should be:
If your fermentation has a significant quantity of heads

• Distill and collect hearts
• Add the tails for flavor
• Keep the heads for later distillation to collect the residual ethanol
• Keep the unused tails for later distillation to collect the residual ethanol

[Odin]

Great to see this tread picking up speed!

Odin.

[pounsfos]

I agree with odin that trying to reduce the problem at fermentation is key.
of course in a distillery the amount of control on fermentation is rediculous

*temps
*ph
*humidity
the list goes on

the 3 noted alcohols in a wash when distilling
Acetone 56.5C (134F)
Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)

acetone and methanbol beeing the foreshots
methanol and ethyl acetate and ethanol as heads.

no matter how much you reduce your heads there will always be that "transition", I mean name one commercial brought drink that hasn't given you a hangover...

the great part about this site is we all "knock heads" share recipes and information with each other, I believe that we are almost the forefront of research into distilling and fermentation

E.g: who the hell thought that using volcaninc rock as a sort of packing would work great, and yet here we are with proof that it does.

or Odin has put alot of research into SPP (spiral prismatic packing) and tested it and found it has a lower HETP than standard pot scrubbers, incredible!!

as a collective of knowledge we have come up with some amazing and crazy Ideas, sure some of them don't work, but hey if you don't try you don't know

My 2c worth in here is that, I'm sure there is a way of reducing our heads cut (there will always be 4 "cuts" for me)
I have found that letting the wash sit on the yeast for it to reabsorb some stuff for a week seem to help abit and I have noticed a smaller cut on my boka, If Odin needs testers on here, we have that many people with stills even though a few variables are different over the word, we can all test something that you may add to the wash, something you do to it, and all report back

Team work at it's finest, sometimes I love the internet, and seeing it used for it's true purpose, sharing Ideas and knowledge

[Odin]

I think basically there is two points I am trying to make:
1. Don't hassle the problem, rather take away what caused the problem. Fermenting, that's where alcs are made, so that's where we have to look if we want smaller heads/tails cuts.
2. Our art has a reciprocity (?) to it. Look at it as bottle neck management. A lot of our attention has been given to the distillation part of the process. Makes perfect sens, since we are called Home Distillers. But once you have reached a certain level in distillation, you can hardly make any progress anymore, if you focus and keep on focussing on that step (distillation) alone. Your bottle neck, and the next leap forward, may well be the way you ferment.

I read a lot of Q's and remarks on my statement that 90% of a distillery's money is tied up in the vessels for fermentation. Some said, and correctly so, that most of their money is in those barrels ageing. What I meant is that equipment wise, for a big distillery 90% of the costs go into making the beer. Distilling is only a minor part of their investment.

Now, I see this percentage rapidly changeing. Smaller micro's up the percentage to like 50:50. But if you dive into their processes, where do you think they can make that extra step? Usually it is not by buying even more sophisticated distilling equipment ...

Regards, Odin.

PS: SPP was by no way my invention and others already certified its low HETP before I even started making it. It was actually developed by the Mendelev institute in Russia. Why? They wanted to make a packing for smaller columns that would perform as well as Rashig Rings do in a bigger column. SPP is an effort to recreate Rashig Rings on a smaller level. That also means SPP has its limitations. It works great in 2 and 3 inch columns, but it does not work well in bigger than 3 inch column. Just as ceramic Rashig Rings work great in 4 to 7 inch columns, but not in 2 or 3 inch columns. Trailing off topic now ...

[bellybuster]

t... if the pro distillers are able to control their fermentation so as to produce minimal heads, then no heads are present when the cuts are made. Thus, there is no need for them to mention heads.

That's my whole point.. they aren't able to ferment to a no heads cut nor do they care for the most part. Why would they?. They just toss the heads in anyway because it = money. Few distilleries are in the business of making liquor, many are in the business of making money.

I would challenge that method and process of distilling can play a much bigger part in reducing (more like compressing) the necessary heads cut.

[Jimbo]

The pros ferment hot and fast. They have to, economically. There's plenty of heads and tails, that dont get cut, economically.

They rely on barrel aging to tame the beast. Its does somewhat, but there's plenty heads to be tasted, even on 8 year old Jim Beam Black. Im guessing there's plenty in Scotch whiskey too but its buried behind the smoke phenols.

[ga flatwoods]

Odin, I would guess that with the control of abv, dependant on fruit or grain, the averge person here could help improve their ferment. I already exercise those percentages. However, outside of that factor, I see difficulty beyond that of practicality for the average distiller. A controlled climate would be a necessity and beyond most peoples availability to provide. While I do not argue the correctness in the logic, there will still be some heads always present. The question is ultimately can or will one be satisfied leaving them in the product rather than removing what can can be cut from the finished product. At the higher ends of craft distillation, particullary for profit as it would yield a better end product, this is a worthy goal but I do not see it as pragmatic or entirely necessary/achievable at the home distiller level. To "Stop cutting for heads while distilling!" is not advice for the masses.
GA Flatwoods

[woodshed]

I would say you touched on a good point there bellybuster. The methods of the distillation process can and does lead to a compression of the heads cut. But it starts with the fermentation process.
To my dad it was a challenge to ultimately eliminate heads, a torch I have picked up and now carry.
He felt, as I do that our methods used at the distilling end had reached there ultimate level of cuts compression. Only way to go from there is back through the steps to reach the still. Fermenting and mashing. A low ABV is for me the starting point. A little bit of infection goes a long ways as well.

I touched on some of what I do in an earlier post but that's about all I'm willing to do.
Being a big Nascar fan I'll use this analogy. A team may share car setup points with a teammate but are not going to go into the subtleties of how they achieved it.
By no means do I consider myself a pro distiller but I am just label approval away from being on the shelves. No heads go into my finished product. I'm in it to make the highest quality spirits I can. The money will follow.

Someone else mentioned that the pros have a lot of tools available to them the homedistiller does not.
This is true to a point. But virtually all of these tools are available for home use or can be built at home. I realize that is not practical for most just pointing out it can be done.
I am fortunate to have the equipment and space I do. But it's cost me a fair amount of money and countless hours of Frankenstein experimenting.

[Jimbo]

There's some good articles in the Fall edition of Whisky Advocate. (great magazine by the way). There's one that speak to the economics of the small guy, trying to get 'something that differentiates' to the market 'faster' when all the raw materials and overhead are enormous compared to the economies of scale for the big boys. They speak about infusion and amendment in the barrel. Infusion being getting the oak caramel and vanilla flavors in, and amendment being the harmonization of the heads and tails through age, oxidation etc. They (we) use small barrels that infuse flavors from the barrel faster due to size, but too fast for amendment to take place, so by necessity must make tighter cuts. At the end of the day they have something great, but its not really bourbon, in the traditional sense. Does it matter. Fuck no, IMO. Its better! This is where Im at. TIght cuts, shorter aging with more charred oak sq inches per gallon and Ill put my hooch up against any of the big boys. Does it taste like bourbon. Yes, to me, but smoother and more of the good flavors forward, not buried behind a harshness or back of the throat headsy flavor. If someone doesnt want to call it bourbon then, because its smoother, well good for them.

We're on the cusp of a whiskey renaissance right now. There are many hundreds of micro's now and growing rapidly. After parsing out the 'fakers' who buy aged barrels from the big guys (with their continuous distillation columns) there are many making incredible hooch. Its great to see.

Remember, the big boys ferment hot and fast, and use continuous distillation stills. Continuous stills cant make cuts, they run continuously. And hot fast ferments make shite wash. Put it together and it doesnt sound terribly appealing does it.

[MitchyBourbon]

I understand that practicality is a barrier for home distillers. We are busy people and can't justify huge investments in equipment. And lets face it, futzing around with yeast may not seem as sexy as operating a nice shiny copper still with site glasses and water hoses and such. I feel like some sorta mad hillbilly scientist when I'm running mine. But there are lots of little things we can do to make a difference.

I will take one practice I'm sure nearly all of us do that can easily be improved. Harvesting/Reusing yeast. Most of us simply scoop out some of the stuff from our fermenters, maybe give it a rinse and toss it in the next batch. Sure, this probably seems to work just fine. But as a population that yeast colony probably is not as healthy as you think. Your previous batch probably finished at 8 abv or more. Even at that low a level not all of your yeast went dormant after the food was gone. Some of the yeast may have mutated some may have become damaged.

A better way is to harvest the yeast before you ferment. All you have to do is take a pinch of the yeast you intend on using and set it aside. Put it in the fridge for later use. I store mine in a vial with a screw cap. Three days before I plan on mashing I take out my vial from the fridge. And begin the steps to propagate a colony of yeast to a sufficient size for my next batch. This takes almost 5 minutes each day for 3 days.

[Odin]

Very interesting, Mitchy!

Could you tell some more on how this can help us obtaining our goals?

I'd love to hear more of that!

Regards, Odin.

[bellybuster]

I still say that fermentation will never get you to a no heads distillation....ever.
The compounds that make up heads are a natural byproduct of fermentation and will always be present. Some ferments more than others depending on ingredients.

Can you make a reduction in those compounds thru fermentation?? maybe.. I have yet to see any real data on that.

can you make a reduction thru distillation practices? Absolutely

Can you completely get rid of the need for a heads cut?? Matter of opinion and taste I guess. I say no.

[MitchyBourbon]

bellybuster, I have to agree, we may never get to that point of completely eliminating 100 %. But I'm not going to let that stop me from at least trying to pick the low hanging fruit.

[MitchyBourbon]

Odin wrote,

Could you tell some more on how this can help us obtaining our goals?

There are an awful lot of things going on during fermentation. The yeast go through a number of generations. Each generation can under go small changes, some might be desirable some not. Mutants, some of which consume sugars and reproduce and don't produce alcohol can begin appearing.

By harvesting yeast from a ferment at any point during or at the end of fermentation, you are selecting characteristics that got the yeast to that point. If you select yeast from the bottom before fermentation is complete then you are selecting early floculators. If you select yeast suspended in the fermenter you are selecting yeast that don't floculate. Selecting yeast at the end of fermentation will give you a cross section yeast that include good yeast, weak yeast and mutant yeast. All of these choices will affect and multiply in subsequent fermentations. Any colony of yeast that is weak or unhealthy will strugle and produce less of what we want and more of what we don't.

By selecting a small sample of yeast to propagate when you want you control the show. When I propagate a sample for my next batch I prepare a solution of water and DME. My solution only has a gravity of 1.030. Before and during I make sure it is well aerated. I use a stir plate but it could also be done by giving it a good shake once in a while. In doing it this way the yeast only reproduce themselves, they don't make much alcohol if any. They will mostly produce happy healthy copies of themselves. When they eat all the DME they all go dormant untill I need them next.

[Jimbo]

Odin wrote,

Could you tell some more on how this can help us obtaining our goals?

There are an awful lot of things going on during fermentation. The yeast go through a number of generations. Each generation can under go small changes, some might be desirable some not. Mutants, some of which consume sugars and reproduce and don't produce alcohol can begin appearing.

By harvesting yeast from a ferment at any point during or at the end of fermentation, you are selecting characteristics that got the yeast to that point. If you select yeast from the bottom before fermentation is complete then you are selecting early floculators. If you select yeast suspended in the fermenter you are selecting yeast that don't floculate. Selecting yeast at the end of fermentation will give you a cross section yeast that include good yeast, weak yeast and mutant yeast. All of these choices will affect and multiply in subsequent fermentations. Any colony of yeast that is weak or unhealthy will strugle and produce less of what we want and more of what we don't.

In theory yes. In practice not so much. In 19 years of brewing Ive bever had a yeast mutate and cause a problem. Never had a mix of early and late floculators fornicate up the batch either.

Ill typically never go beyond 4 or 5 generations before just buying fresh yeast, and this makes hundreds of batches. How? Harvesting 4 half pints from each gen. Do the math. 4 generations, collecting 4 from each half pint batch is 340 half pints collected at Gen4.

[bellybuster]

I'm with Jimbo on this one. All the way. Mutant yeasts?? During a single fermentation??

Back on target though... where and how are we to eliminate heads thru fermentation practices??

[Jimbo]

I think we covered that already belly. Cant eliminate them but can certainly reduce them dramatically with low and slow low abv ferments. Basically healthy ferments, happy yeast.

Another benefit of healthy ferments is better utilization, capture, of the desireable fruity esters many yeast make (English Ales especially). If you let the yeast ferment happy and minimize the heads. You then cut less, and by cutting less youre keeping those desireable fruity esters in your drink, since they come over very early in the distillation process.

[MitchyBourbon]

Jimbo wrote,

In theory yes. In practice not so much. In 19 years of brewing Ive bever had a yeast mutate and cause a problem. Never had a mix of early and late floculators fornicate up the batch either.

Jimbo, you can prove this to yourself. Compare a sample of your harvested yeast to a sample of freash yeast under a microscope. You should see a lot of cells in the harvested sample that don't look alike. Or you could prepare a couple of petri dishes of each yeast sample. After a couple of days compare them. Again the harvested sample will have a number of misshapened colonies.

It's the misshapened cells and colonies that want to shit in your drink. Don't feel bad Jimbo, I didn't notice anything myself until a couple years ago when I took up brewing AG beer. I started distilling when I was in high school, I'm 50 now... Do the math.

[Jimbo]

haha, I dont feel bad, why would I feel bad.

misshappened or not, they havent shit in my drink in 20 years. And the dozen brewers I know havent had problems either. Maybe the misshappen ones dont get very far in the next round. Darwin and all.

To each his own. There's folks who buy fresh yeast for every batch, there's folks who harvest and dump, there's folks who do slants and propagate every batch. Thats fine. All Im saying to your post is in practice these little beasts are hardier than what youre suggesting, and do just fine for themselves.

[woodshed]

MB & Jimbo, I feel your both right. I would say it's what you do with those dirty yeast that makes the difference. Which is why I run a secondary fermentation. Belly makes a good point as well. Probably never make it down to no heads but I'm at 2% and pretty happy with that.

[Jimbo]

Woodshed. You cut 2% heads, after fores, or does that include fores?

Whats your net take, % wise? Say your wash calculates out to 1 proof gallon for example, what will you end up bottling? Do you do 1 run or 2?

cheers.