uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[CornMealKid]

Is it true that one wouldn't need to remove and replace a 1/3 of the cracked corn until after a couple of generations? I thought I read that somewhere in these 200+ pages but can't seem to find it anymore, am I imagining things?

[Prairiepiss]

Some say every generation and some say after two. I've seen as high as 7. It's all up to you. Look at it and see. If its all grey and floaty. Change it. If not work with it.

[Bushman]

Is it true that one wouldn't need to remove and replace a 1/3 of the cracked corn until after a couple of generations? I thought I read that somewhere in these 200+ pages but can't seem to find it anymore, am I imagining things?

I usually replace around 1/5th on each run after #2. The cracked corn is cheap so it doesn't hurt.

[Shae]

It can be tough sometimes to replace exactly what you take out...if you do it by volume, you'll add more over time because the removed corn is swollen with liquid. I generally scrape off the dull colored surface (the good corn is bright yellow underneath...unmistakable difference) and replace it with about half as much dry corn. In my bucket, the corn sits at about the 2 gallon mark, and I try to keep it there...adding more or less as necessary. If you change the ratio of good corn to spent corn too much (by allowing the spent corn to build up with no fresh added), your generations will lose flavor over time. Maybe that makes for a nice blend, I don't know. Best to try to keep it where you like it.

[Odin]

I feel more and more that it may be beneficial to take some of the sludge out as well. Maybe sorta clean part of your grains? Why I think so? Because the amounht of sludge I get over the generations is just ... enourmous. And I am not sure it is all alive and healthy yeast. I expect a lot of dead yeast in there too.

What are your ideas?

Odin.

[Bushman]

I feel more and more that it may be beneficial to take some of the sludge out as well. Maybe sorta clean part of your grains? Why I think so? Because the amounht of sludge I get over the generations is just ... enourmous. And I am not sure it is all alive and healthy yeast. I expect a lot of dead yeast in there too.

What are your ideas?

Odin.

I agree and I found not all the spent corn floats. Like I mentioned earlier it's pretty cheap just replacing it with a set amount works for me. But I also usually never go above 7 generations and a lot of times stop at 5. Why because I want to use my fermentors for other products no science here at all!

[Prairiepiss]

It will be fine. Mine has been sitting for over 6 months waiting for me to run it.

[varocketry]

ODIN:
I agree as I've written you. No one seems to identify a positive contribution the accumulating trub provides.

[CornMealKid]

Big THANK YOU to Uncle Jesse and the folks like Prarie Piss, Bushman and others who have steered me thru this thing. Excellent recipe, I am very impressed. Sort of an odd video here by the way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xYdsGpQr8A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Fastill]

I feel more and more that it may be beneficial to take some of the sludge out as well. Maybe sorta clean part of your grains? Why I think so? Because the amounht of sludge I get over the generations is just ... enourmous. And I am not sure it is all alive and healthy yeast. I expect a lot of dead yeast in there too.

What are your ideas?

Odin.

Yep, this is what I meant when I said I wash my grains after a few generations.

[CornMealKid]

What is the sludge??? Broken-down corn that's turned from solid to sludge?? How do you clean part of your grains? Last night, I dumped ALL my wash from a single fermentation bucket into my two stainless boilers, all that was left was cracked corn. After doing so, I was sure I extracted nearly all my yeast with that dump and felt awfully regretful. After throwing my sugar-saturated backset into the cracked corn and 3.75 G of water, getting the lid and lock in place, started hearing burps from my lock 30 - 60 mins later. My grin stretched wide. This is quite the recipe! The yeast is now like a new pet I will not forget to feed.

[Prairiepiss]

It's fine corn particles. Dead and live yeast.

[NZChris]

The difference between spent grains & not so spent grains never made itself obvious in my fermenter, so I just stirred up the trub, removed a third of the weight and replaced it with fresh grain each time. The flavor is very good, and the birds in my garden are very happy. Yesterday, Daisy Duck came to see why Donald was getting home pissed every afternoon. I don't see any reason to mess with Uncle Jessie's method until I'm not happy with the flavor profile.

You can get more, or less, flavor by changing the amount you replace each time, so you could toss out and replace a third, a half, or even all of the trub each time depending on how much flavor you like as long as you didn't get rid of a really good yeast in the process.

There might be some flavor in the last generation's grains that doesn't come through until the next ferment, but I can't imagine what it would be. I don't leave coffee dregs in my press for a second time around.

[Fastill]

Corn here is cheap enough that replacing some every generation isn't going to break you, and if you use it as feed, why not get some use for yourself out of it first.
I just don't think that in a cold mash like UJSSM that the corn gives up its goodies in the first or much in the second generation. It is still hard as a rock and doesn't soften up and lose its starch and flavor until 3-4 generations are run. You are getting some from the very small pieces and dust from grinding, but it takes a few runs to really start getting the flavor out of it. This is when the backset starts bringing the flavor back to the ferment.

[Shae]

ODIN:
I agree as I've written you. No one seems to identify a positive contribution the accumulating trub provides.

There is some benefit to having dead yeast, as the living yeast will break them down and use them for nutrients (yeast energizer is mostly dead yeast). However, there is likely to be a functional limit to the benefit, as there will be corn dust, other particles, etc, that accumulate. I wouldn't think there's really any detriment except for the volume it displaces. How much volume is it, really, that it would matter except over many generations? But it should be easy enough to wash the corn and yeast, transfer to a different fermenting vessel, clean out the trub from the old one, and save for the next washing.

[Shae]

There might be some flavor in the last generation's grains that doesn't come through until the next ferment, but I can't imagine what it would be. I don't leave coffee dregs in my press for a second time around.

But all of the corn isn't getting used, like your coffee. Imagine using 10 times the amount of coffee you needed, but still only made a cup at a time. It would last for several cups before you'd need to add more.

[NZChris]

I don't think so. The first cup would be so strong it would be undrinkable, the last would be almost totally flavorless.

I had a chew on some grains after the first generation of my UJSSM and reckon they were pretty much washed out flavorwise. If they did have something to add to the next generation it was too subtle for my taste buds. I reckon if I had chucked some sugar and water in it, it would have made a fine near neutral for gin making.

That said, I ain't changing. Uncle Jessie's method worked for me and I have some fine backset in the freezer ready to kick off generation #7 when I feel the urge. I've already used backset from this to start a very nice three generation AG, and the backset from that to start a rum that is now on it's third generation.

[Mr Shine]

I've got a 3rd generation ferment if UJSM going on 11 days. What the heck. I've never had it going that long between generations and I've done several batches it's usually no more than seven days. Is that unusual? Plus I'm getting thirsty, lol. Just wondering.

How much backset have you been using? Did you check the ph? Could be a little low, causing the slowness. HTH

[Stainless dude]

mr shine is most likely correct, could be too much backset. Need look at temp of the ferment also, has temp dropped down in you distilling area?

[tropik]

mr shine is most likely correct, could be too much backset. Need look at temp of the ferment also, has temp dropped down in you FERMENTING area?

Agreed. It's November my outside temps are down and my ferments are taking longer.

[Shae]

I don't think so. The first cup would be so strong it would be undrinkable, the last would be almost totally flavorless.

I had a chew on some grains after the first generation of my UJSSM and reckon they were pretty much washed out flavorwise. If they did have something to add to the next generation it was too subtle for my taste buds. I reckon if I had chucked some sugar and water in it, it would have made a fine near neutral for gin making.

That said, I ain't changing. Uncle Jessie's method worked for me and I have some fine backset in the freezer ready to kick off generation #7 when I feel the urge. I've already used backset from this to start a very nice three generation AG, and the backset from that to start a rum that is now on it's third generation.

I understand where you are coming from...I'm not changing, either, since the recipe works as is for me, as well, and I also have enough backset stored to kick off again when needed. But it did get me thinking. If you are correct, and most of the flavor is leached out during a single generation (presumably after the first couple where the yeast and lacto are getting established and balanced...gen 4 at the earliest?), that means one or both of 2 things: an increasingly flavorful backset is contributing most of the flavor, and/or that the small amount of corn that is replaced is enough to ensure sufficient flavor.

Presumably, this could be easily tested (and I might, just for kicks). By starting the next generation as normal, but splitting it into 2 fermenters, one as normal, and one with all the corn removed but the yeast and lacto remaining (could be poured off from the single fermenter and filtered to catch the spent corn) and just a replacement amount of fresh corn added, the flavor profiles could be easily compared. It would be an interesting experiment, and useful, since the corn layer takes up so much volume...that could easily be replaced by more backset, water, and sugar to increase the yield volume (not during the experiment, of course). This would be especially useful for folks who are fermenting in 5-gallon buckets, rather than bigger ones.

With my batches already running in separate fermenters, it will be easy for me to test, since I blend the wash from both to run and use the same backset to start each off...they have to be identical at this point. I'd just need to wash off the corn in one fermenter and run like normal from there. I'm collecting wash for a stripping run tomorrow, so I'll give it a go...the only risk is possibly needing to add a ton of new corn in a week and a slightly less flavorful single run.

[NZChris]

I'm thinking of experimenting along the same lines, Shae

I've picked up some more 5 gal fermenters which will enable me to do parallel ferments to compare.

But... it's getting close to Christmas and I just had look in my beer cellar ..... AAARRRRGGGGHHHH

[Shae]

I've started my test. I washed the corn from one fermenter as best I could before tossing it out...I was surprised how much stuff was caked at the very bottom. Not just piled there, but really stuck. Even if it turns out that all the corn is needed, I'd think that it would be good to break that stuff up each time.

The reduction in volume was, of course, very noticeable.

I'll run each bucket separately to get a solid idea of the flavor of each.

More to come as the test progresses.

[Prairiepiss]

I always mix the yeast and grain bed up good. When add the new water backset and sugar. I hit it with the paint mixer.

[homebrew+]

I just did my first spirit run of ujssm last night. Came out great. It came off at 160 threw most of the run. Then fell off fast at the end. Well today i bottled it up in a 1 gallon glass bottle filled to the top(was 35 degrees outside) . Then brought it in the house and put it up to age. Well it expanded as it warmed and broke Guess its time to start over!!!

[Stainless dude]

Well that sucks... Never had any glass break on me, hope it never does...
Maybe leave some room for expansion next time..

[Prairiepiss]

Higher ABV alcohol expansions rate is much higher then water. You must. I repeat. You MUST leave plenty of headroom. I had two bust on me.

[Michaeln416]

Higher ABV alcohol expansions rate is much higher then water. You must. I repeat. You MUST leave plenty of headroom. I had two bust on me.

Thanks for that advice. I just put a glass carboy away and filled it almost all of the way to the bottom of the cork. When I pushed that cork in the little bit of headspace that there was compressed so much that the oak spiral floating at the top of the bottle suddenly dropped to the bottom. I'm going to pull some off the top now with a syringe and give it some more head space.

So sorry for your loss homebrew+.

[sltm1]

I just did my 1st run of UJSSM, (no backset cause it's the 1st), and it seems to be an extremely slow recipe to distill even at a high temp. Has anyone else found this to be true? If not, I'll look for technical problems with my set-up. Thanx

[BourbonStreet]

Higher ABV alcohol expansions rate is much higher then water. You must. I repeat. You MUST leave plenty of headroom. I had two bust on me.

I hear my mason jar lids pop sometimes with temperature changes, and that's with 120 proof jars 3/4 full. 160 proof could definitely break a full jar!