wild yeast

[abardente]

Hi I'm new here, haven't distilled yet but getting ready to start very soon.

I searched and could not find a thread dedicated specifically to wild yeast though I found some useful information such as... wild yeast is usually present on grain and malt, some wild strains produce excellent results while others make your mash taste nasty and you need to make sure the yeast has enough of a head start to beat out bacterias, at least that's how I undersand it, feel free to clarify.

So then I had an idea for harvesting wild yeast that I wanted to run by y'all here. What if I were to get a bunch of empty wine bottles and fill them with sugar water and a little bit of grain and/or malt and place airlocks on them and wait for them to ferment. I would take notes on how quickly each one fermented and then do smell/taste tests to see which ones were nasty or nice and then choose one(s) that seemed best, then maybe do further tests on some of the better ones before choosing one to use on a whole batch of mash. Just wondering if that seems like it would be worth the effort or if there are any suggestions on how to improve the process. I've read a few things on the net about people having great success with wild yeast for apple cider, but then it seems that's a lot more common and that it's much harder to get a good wild yeast working on grains.

I also wonder if different strains of yeast can coexist or if one will eventually beat out the rest within a 'closed' environment like a fermenter.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[acfixer69]

Bakers bread yeast is so cheap why risk a 60$ bag of malt on it. Or even a 15$ bag of corn.
AC

[lickermaker]

Hi I'm new here, haven't distilled yet but getting ready to start very soon.

I searched and could not find a thread dedicated specifically to wild yeast though I found some useful information such as... wild yeast is usually present on grain and malt, some wild strains produce excellent results while others make your mash taste nasty and you need to make sure the yeast has enough of a head start to beat out bacterias, at least that's how I undersand it, feel free to clarify.

So then I had an idea for harvesting wild yeast that I wanted to run by y'all here. What if I were to get a bunch of empty wine bottles and fill them with sugar water and a little bit of grain and/or malt and place airlocks on them and wait for them to ferment. I would take notes on how quickly each one fermented and then do smell/taste tests to see which ones were nasty or nice and then choose one(s) that seemed best, then maybe do further tests on some of the better ones before choosing one to use on a whole batch of mash. Just wondering if that seems like it would be worth the effort or if there are any suggestions on how to improve the process. I've read a few things on the net about people having great success with wild yeast for apple cider, but then it seems that's a lot more common and that it's much harder to get a good wild yeast working on grains.

I also wonder if different strains of yeast can coexist or if one will eventually beat out the rest within a closed environment like a fermenter.

Thanks in advance for any input.

I may be misunderstanding some thing about your post but IMHO if you put an airlock on them you will not collect enough "wild yeast" to ferment. And if you do fermernt in a sealed container that would kill the yeast you are trying to reproduce

[abardente]

@ acfixer69 - What I propose is to use some sugar and just a little uncooked grain in each of a few wine bottles to try to isolate a good strain before later using it on a whole batch of mash, and the point is to get something unique and special, from what I understand different strains of yeast can produce very different results...

@ lickermaker - I'm assuming that the wild yeast is present on the uncooked corn or malt that I'll put into the bottle. Again I've read that there's yeast present on raw grains, and those yeasts are probably more suitable for fermenting grain than random stuff floating around in the air. I didn't say I would ferment in a sealed container that would kill the yeast.

I forgot to mention initially that I would like to use the yeast on some kind of corn based mash for making moonshine.

[Marco+Polo]

Hi,

I was perusing the forum and noticed this post. If you want a really easy way to start a wild yeast culture follow this guide.
The jist of it is you basically use <b>rye/wheat flour</b> which contain wild yeasts and mix them with <b>pineapple juice and water</b> and over the course of a week you will have a yeast culture growing
I've seen a batch (of yeast not mash) grow in as little as four days. Although this is for making sourdough bread you can probably apply the methods contained in this article and use it for your mash. The pineapple juice is just the right PH for wild yeast to thrive in and at the same time keeps other microbes at bay. After your yeast is raging add it to your mash. Cheers!

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233/wi ... gh-starter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

MP

[dakotasnake]

the yeast companys spend tons of money on R & D. they did the work for you. but go ahead and try. it will just cost you time and money.

[MDH]

The last time I checked, yeast in the air weren't charging a fee for their services.

[bellybuster]

The hardest thing will be deciphering whether the activity in your bottle is yeast or bacteria.

Lots of folks are doing this for brewing and ciders and such. I would say not so much for distilling as the process itself strips out most of the subtle flavours that yeast choice provides. Try doing the same wash with bakers and some ale yeast. To me product is the same.
Next fun step after collecting your own yeast will be creating a yeast bank of live frozen yeast.
Have fun, not everything is about saving money or time or we sure wouldn't be distilling now would we.

[bellybuster]

Btw, the yeast off of peach skins is very popular in the wine making scene.

[abardente]

Well I'm hoping the smell would give away bacteria, but then I don't know if I could end up with a mixture of yeast and bacteria. I'm going to try and see anyway, it's not going to cost much to put some sugar water in some bottles and it won't stop me from using packaged yeast if I feel like it instead.

I'm sitting here next to a 375 ml bottle of Hudson New York State Corn Whiskey that cost $30 and a 200 ml bottle of Kings Country Distillery Moonshine that cost $20! I could get 750 ml of Rittenhouse Rye for the same price which is some damn fine whiskey that I enjoy straight up, so yeah saving money isn't the biggest issue when it comes to trying to make liquor that tastes great fresh right off the still.

[bellybuster]

There's a ton of great web pages all about culturing wild yeasts. Would love to hear about your experiment results

[abardente]

Might be worth owning a copy of Brewing Yeast and Fermentation http://amzn.com/1405152680

[Pesty]

Bakers bread yeast is so cheap why risk a 60$ bag of malt on it. Or even a 15$ bag of corn.
AC

bakers yeast and feed corn.. the perfect combination for a batch of sheeple shine

harvested wild yeast and Hopi blue corn.. now that sounds way more fun than just being like everyone else.


Now as for the OP topic..if you're serious about wild harvesting you'll need some more specific tools and petri dishes. Then you have to make your own AGAR solution.

This should help you get started.. the beer guys are light years ahead of us when it comes to yeast.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Dan P.]

I get wild yeast easy as piss from fruit growing on the trees in my yard. Apples and plums and pears (plums seem to be best), works every time. I would not wait for a yeast to find you. Just go get them from some nice, clean, organic (or unsprayed) fruit!
My wife does it every year with elderflowers in sugar water; "Elderflower Champagne" very low ABV fizzy wonderfulness for all the family, practically free!
The only problem is that wild yeasts are slow, sometimes v e e e r y s l o w, and might not be great for high gravity washes (I don't do those).
Yes, you might get something nasty, but it hasn't happened to me yet. Make a starter first anyway. I would avoid trying to culture with any grain products (flour, feed grain) except boiled malt wort (put the fruit into the wort). I personally use only smushed clean, good-looking fruit, maybe a little sugar and water, and some nutes.

[MDH]

Wild yeast is the way I do things when I'm aiming for the top. Slivovitz and Mezcal are some of my favorite spirits and all benefit from the addition of wild yeast and bacteria.

A very excellent resource for information about this is Google Scholar. Searching the terms "Bacteria" as well as the name of your desired spirit will give you a large amount of resources. Supposedly, certain Agave benefit in taste from almost identical strains to those used in Yogurt, hence the often buttery and sour-cream like aroma of Mezcal.

[Geronimo]

I would like to chime in with some info on this post........ I am now 100% behind wild yeasts!! I had a fortunate surprise with it and let me tell you how it came about. I have been making some blue corn moonshine and whiskeys from the same batch of blue hopi corn for a number of batches..... It was good. But here is what I accidentally came about. I was making whiskey from blue corn that had been malted. I was taking the corn when it malted and dried it out right away and ground it so that all the moisture would be out and I wouldnt get any bacteria build up in it. I was experementing around with some freshly malted blue corn and figured instead of drying it first then grinding it, I would just skip the drying step and grind it while it was still green and moist. I ground up quite a bit of it and put it in a 5 gallon bucket and was going to start brewing with it the following day. Well I didnt get a chance to start a new batch with half the malted and half the non malted ground corn. Well the second day when i came down stairs it smelled like the inside of a Bakery shop that makes bread. I could smell the wild yeast going to town on the still very damp ground up corn. I took a whif in the bucket and you could really smell it strong. So I figured I would do an experement with it. I put a small bit of it in a jug and added water......the yeast began to bubble within the hour. So I took the rest of the green corn and added water to it and put it in a 5 gallon bucket and set it aside.... By the following morning it was bubbling away.... So I added more of the now fermenting corn malt to it and let it finish out. I also added in some regular sugar to boost the alcohol output.

Well it finished out in about 6 days and I went to the distilling..... I figured whats the worst it can happen? It couldnt be any worse than using a turbo yeast or even a bakers yeast. Well I was in for the suprise of my life!! This Moonshine came out with such a complex flavor that I could only discribe as 3D in your mouth. I tasted it side by side with the batches I was making using a whiskey yeast and I could only discribe it as a HUGE improvement. With the whiskey yeast it tasted like a 2D product....wasnt bad. But with the wild yeast it tasted soooo much smoother and complex. Well I am now running thorugh the next batches as I type...... Did the same thing to see if I could repeat it and then harvest the yeast. So far it has the same complex flavors in the moonshine. This week I will be putting a batch into making some quick whiskey with some Oak chips. I want to compare it to the other recipe I was using with the blue corn and the Whiskey yeast. Im pretty confident that it will be the same huge difference in the complexity and flavors.....

[abardente]

@ Geronimo - That sounds awesome, exactly the kind of thing I want to do, and it seems it's not that uncommon, basically malted/sprouted grain tends to have a lot of yeast on it, and probably best not to dry it, as in your case, to get the most activity, plus a little bacteria in there can help to enhance the flavor, as long as it doesn't get out of hand, and I figure very active yeast will keep the bacterias in check, these micro organisms compete and can be antagonistic to one another, something I learned from messing around a bit with fungiculture years ago.

So I'm wondering do you get consistent results from different batches of malt made from the same corn, or does it seem kind of random, some better or just different than others?

According to Jim Tom, likker that's fermented with yeast from malted corn won't give you a hangover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTiSc5-EWbA . Trying to enjoy my night life without (much of) a hangover was what got me hooked on good liquor back in the day. Another consideration when making fresh liquor, as opposed to stuff you're going to age, is that it's got to be the best it can be right off the bat since aging actually removes a lot of the impurities that give you a hangover. Complex flavors are another benefit, unless you like drinking koolaid spiked with everclear

[abardente]

@ MDH - I really got interested in fresh liquor, and started thinking about making it, when I was in Sardinia a couple years ago. I went to a festival in a small town with different vendors and stuff, and in one place there was an open basement that smelled kind of musty, but in a peculiar way that seemed typical to the place and arid climate. They had a mummified cat on display that they'd found during some re-excavations there. Later in the evening they cooked a big meal and served the local fresh, clear liquor afterwards as a "digestive". The flavor reminded me just a little of the smell in that basement. I'm not sure if it was due to the yeast, bacteria, or other fungi and/or micro organisms, but it was good stuff, with an interestingly complex flavor. I had the opportunity to consume more of it, in greater quantities, on other occasions and was very impressed with clear headed buzz and lack of (much) hangover the next day.

I think I should rename this thread "wild yeast and bacteria", or just "wild micro flora/fauna". I'd like to try some good clear Mezcal. I find that some clear liquors have a weird, bitter or gasoline-like after-taste, and pretty soon I get really used to it or get really bothered by it.

[abardente]

I've successfully distilled with wild yeast that I collected in jars left outdoors over night. Each contained a few tablespoons of green malted corn and were covered with cheese cloth held over jar mouths by rubber bands. Critters got into a couple of them but the rest worked out pretty well. The next day I added sugar water to them and they started to ferment slowly and eventually developed grain caps which fell after 2 weeks or so at which point I put them in the refrigerator. I'm not sure that the yeast came from outside instead of from the seed corn I used. I tried a jar or 2 left indoors and they didn't seem to develop anything besides bacteria but maybe I didn't leave them long enough.

I made a starter in a bigger jar with more green malted corn, sugar water, and the contents of the one of jars from the fridge and it got very active. When introduced into a bucket of mash it started to ferment in less than 24 hours just as energetically as any store bought yeast. It also smells similar to the commercial yeasts but not nearly as sweet and fruity as ale yeast or even baker's yeast. I would describe it as very "plain". I suppose it might be better for neutral spirits. I could try it on a few batches to make enough for a spirit run but I'm thinking it's probably not worth it since it seems so plain. At least I've got a collection technique that doesn't require scientific equipment so maybe I'll be able to harvest something more interesting next season.

I'm also thinking I might try adding it to batch and add some baker's yeast also and see how they interact and/or harvest some of the trub afterwards and see what that does in a jar of sugar water.