Something Wrong, Grains in or out (tennessee whiskey)

[n1cod3mus]

Hi guys,

I need some advice, i'm not sure if I did this correctly or not heres my recipe which is a typical one

80% corn (5200g)
12% barley malt (800g)
8% rye (500g)

I'm using a 25L fermenter, I dont have a large enough pot to cook all the mash in one go so i did it in 4 batches, I cooked the corn until boiling point and then kept them there for about 15 minutes then cut the heat. when the temp got to 76C (170F) i put in the rye then when it got to 66C (148F) I put in the barley left it for 5 minutes then put the whole lot in a fermenter so I could do the next batch. when I had done all 4 batches I strained the grains in to a fresh fermenter and rinsed the grains with a little hot water. when it got to 23C (75F) I pitched the yeast in. I didn't put in any backset as this was my first lot, but i kept the backset from this lot for the next lot, i will put about 25% in.

took about 5 - 6 days to ferment.

so my main question is should I have left the grain in for a while or was I right to strain the grains out?

the SG didn't seem very high, and i didn't get a lot from the distill about 1 liter at 40% tops, but it did taste nice right off the still so I know this is the flavor I want.

if i left the grains in, I am worried that I will not have much liquid when i strain it out, something I am doing is not right

I had thought about adding sugar but I wanted to avoid this as I want to do a AG, can anyone help me out?

thanks
N1cod3mus

[pounsfos]

I'm not an expert on grains, But I'm pretty sure you need to leave it cook longer * a search will show ya where to go*

most strain the grains, unlike beer where they like to keep it in

you never actually mentioned what the starting gravity (SG) was....

but by the sounds of it, you didn't give the boil enough time to convert the starches to sugars

most people use paint straining bags to gets everything they can out of it

[BentJar]

You need to boil that corn for an hour to an hour and a half. Stirring all the time. Allow to rest until it cools to 155 to 150 , then add malt.

[Brendan]

The others have pointed out that corn is a difficult thing to master. Needs to be cooked at high temps (90+C) for at least 90 mins so that it gelatinises (where the starches are extracted).

I also think you are not holding at conversion temps, when you say you threw it in a fermenter after 5 mins. You need to look up your conversion rests. I hold mine at the 66-63C range for several hours before I cool it down and pitch yeast. If you use the iodine starch conversion test, you can check that all starches have been converted.

Another point I'll mention, that most people don't understand with all grain...a grain bill of 80% corn, doesn't mean you add 80% corn by weight. Different grains will be able to give you varying amounts of sugars by weight...for example, corn may yield 70% sugars by weight, whereas malt barley can be more like 50% sugars by weight...don't worry though, a lot do it the way you have...you need to look into this and calculate the grain bill properly...you may find your grain bill actually turns out to be 90% corn (in terms of sugars by weight), and therefore your malts may not have enough diastatic power to convert all the corn starches as they might be 10% or less of the grain bill (but not 20% as you thought)...

[Halfbaked]

I have never done an all grain but Jimbo says he leaves on grains on and it is easier to squeeze out and you will get a little bit more sugar. Not a chance i would not do what Jimbo says. That being said, sure it would be fine to take grains off after you mash and will be fine. The easiest and best tutorial for a beginner to understand what is going on and how to do what you need to do is http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=39617 . My first AG will be exactly this and I have read it 1000 times. I know that I reading it that many times makes me feel confident that i can pull it off. It looks so easy. It looks like it would make fine drop and the best learning experience ever. JMHO. Hope it helps

[n1cod3mus]

ok this is cool thanks for the replies.

so it looks like my main mistake was to not hold it at the top temp for long enough, basically I was following what I saw on a video from the jack daniels distillery, they didn't mention holding the temp there. I will try it again today.

by the way my starting SG was 1.028 which i thought was a little odd as sugar washes that i have done before have been much higher, but I put this down to the starches having not been converted by the malt yet. obviously I was wrong.

[n1cod3mus]

Ok i have just finished cooking the first batch and with the longer cook time its noticeably thicker, which is the starches i know that , I was surprised how quick the enzymes in the barley malt work, I added them gradually and as I was stirring it was getting thinner and less mash like. awesome.

I also downloaded a documentary on JD and in there they say they hold the mash at boiling point for 20 minutes, thats not what I saw on another video. and obviously with larger vats it holds the temp better so it will cook for longer which we cant do at home so we have to cook if for longer to achieve the same results.

I am learning a lot here, like how much it sucks to do it with a 6L sauce pan for one lol I have to do this 4 times now. wish I had a bigger pot, think I might buy one tomorrow lol

[Prairiepiss]

Sinuous really think JD is gona publish their methods? They will yell you just enough to make you think you know it. But they left out half of the equation.

There are a lot of good threads about mashing around here. That will actually tell you everything you need to know.

[Jimbo]

Buffalo Trace has a 10,000 gallon pressure cooker, said they cook several batches of corn per day under pressure for 45 minutes (hotter than 212). Didnt say what temp/pressure, but didnt matter, my jaw was already on the ground.

[n1cod3mus]

Yeah i kinda got that they wont give everything away which is why I have been reading loads of stuff on this forum and the parent site.

but I was near enough there already, just needed to adjust my cooking time, but when I have finished cooking all the batches and get the liquids off and check the SG I will know for sure.

best get back to making the next batch

[Halfbaked]

Haha JD is cheap but not easy. Piss and Jimbo are cheap and easy. Thanks Piss and Jimbo for teachin the nubbbbbs.

[n1cod3mus]

I wasn't asking for your opinion, there are people out there that actually like it..... that being said I don't like it either to be honest but I am making it for some friends

[n1cod3mus]

another point is it gives newbies a bench mark to improve on, the only reference point a newbie has is what you can buy, until you have made some stuff yourself that is better, as a newbie you are in the dark and dont know any different.

[Halfbaked]

whew, well i wasn't giving you my opinion. It was about the process that you f ed up and the 2 helping you. I don't drink Piss or Jimbo either. RE read what i said. Don't be so touchy.

[Fastill]

I ferment on the grain and distill off the grain, but am not trying to emulate Tennesee Whisky. Gives me all the flavor I need and I don't worry about burning mash in the still.
If you are trying to make JD for your friends, you will need to use their water, grain and grainbill, their stills, their charcoaled mapel, their barrels and their aging barns, without you are only swimming upstream.

[Prairiepiss]

Haha JD is cheap but not easy. Piss and Jimbo are cheap and easy. Thanks Piss and Jimbo for teachin the nubbbbbs.

Which one of us is cheap and which one easy?

And agree JD is cheap. But it is easy too. Just take a bad run of whiskey. Make bad cuts. Filter through homemade sugarmaple charcoal. And age on oak for a while. Easy peasy.

[Jimbo]

Lol. I'll be cheap if you'll be sleazy, I mean easy. We can trade next week.

JD is oaked neutral after that charcoal treatment. Filtered gallons thru my liver. No more..... Except in coke. Lol. Still love me a JD and coke.

[Prairiepiss]

I can't drink the stuff. It makes me mean. Just the opposite of easy.

[Jimbo]

That's the best part

[Halfbaked]

I b sleazy if you want me to.

[Prairiepiss]

I b sleazy if you want me to.

I thought that was a given.

[Halfbaked]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh come on now. I claim sexual harassment. Does that please you.

[Prairiepiss]

Maybe.

[Halfbaked]

BLAHAHAAHHAHHAAHAHAAHAHAHHAHA

[n1cod3mus]

Lol. I'll be cheap if you'll be sleazy, I mean easy. We can trade next week.

JD is oaked neutral after that charcoal treatment. Filtered gallons thru my liver. No more..... Except in coke. Lol. Still love me a JD and coke.

thats basically what my mates want it for JD and coke

[Jimbo]

As frustrated as I am with myself for drinking Jack for so long, after tasting it side by side with some proper bourbons, I sure do love a Jack and Coke, hard to beat.

[ohyeahyeah]

Most commercial distilleries use steam jet cookers that instantly heat grain to 212. Unless you have access to similar equipment you should be looking at more traditional methods of cooking and mashing grain.

[n1cod3mus]

so what would you guys expect the SG to be on an All Grain mash?

[n1cod3mus]

FYI the SG of the mash I have just done with the longer cook time is 1.050

[Jimbo]

1.055 to 1.060 is a good target. What it will be depends on your recipe and skill.