2" Diameter Shotgun enroute

Post by **BigSwede** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:20 am

I'm making progress on my jack-of-all-trades shotgun condenser, started with just the end plates from this thread:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=47129

These end cups were designed to hold themselves firmly in place inside the 2" Cu pipe.

The overall plan is a still column and condenser set in separate pieces, using 2" tri-clamps to piece together. This way, I can re-configure to do what I want, hopefully quickly and easily. Take the packed column off the boiler, now it's a pot still. Remove the Bok slant plate section, replace with a Tee and a valve, it's a VM still.

So this shottie can act as a vertical reflux condenser, or a product condenser; whatever I need it to do.

The tubes (7 of them) are 14" long. Outer diameter is 1/2", inner diameter ~ 0.430", i.e. a hard-drawn 3/8" pipe. To start, the ends were annealed and quenched.

I prepared a fixture from mild steel rod. I threaded the rod, but a 3/8" all-thread rod would work as well for what I did. I threaded two special nuts to fit on the rod, one a base, the other, a flare tool.

The base nut was clamped in a vise, and the flare nut was firmed up and turned a single turn so as to flare the Cu tube. This was repeated for all the tubes, plus a spare.

Post by **BigSwede** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:27 am

The seven tube ends were annealed once more. They were then mounted in a lathe, and a simple tool made of a ball bearing bolted to a stick of aluminum was applied at an angle to curl the flared copper ends into a nice flange...

It's amazing how quickly copper work hardens. The copper flange starts to flow immediately and easily, but the forces to continue build almost instantly, until you get to a point where the pressures are excessive. At that time, the copper must be re-annealed.

All seven tube ends were folded over, test-fitted into one of the end caps:

This thing should solder up nicely with no leaks. I'm trying as much as possible to make everything self-supporting, so that subsequent solder ops, even if solder liquifies, shouldn't case any of the parts to move or shift.

I'm still pondering how I want to plumb this thing. I'm leaning towards copper ferrules tapped 1/4" female pipe... this is a flexible arrangement that would allow ANY 1/4" pipe fitting to work, anything from a compression fitting, a hose barb, or maybe a stainless steel quick-disconnect coupler.

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:53 am

very pro looking build there BigSwede.

DAD300 · Post by **DAD300** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:54 am

Great work...keep going...always overbuild you PC! You have one that should last a lifetime and work on many stills.

Post by **BigSwede** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:12 pm

Appreciate that guys, TY. I'm struggling mentally with how to attach the water fittings. I built a little product liebig condenser that can be used to cool the distillate on a LM still, and all I did was turn a pair of copper ferrule buttons that were tapped 1/8" FPT. These were c-clamped and simply held and soldered above a hole I drilled in the outer jacket.

I could do the same with this condenser, except using 1/4" FPT threads... this shotgun will need greater flow. Would a 1/4" FTP opening be adequate?

The problem with this approach... by the time I have a 2" ferrule on the end of my pipe, an end plate, and 7 pretty heavy tubes, the heat sink is going to be massive, and unless these little ferrules are physically captured without solder, they are going to fall off when heat is applied for the other components.

I need to figure out a way to have water attachment devices/ferrules/whatever that are self supporting. All I can think of is a small copper doubler plate at the H2O locations that are riveted in place, with a hole that is threaded perhaps with a straight thread. In turn, the 1/4" FTP ferrules are screwed on. Once there, I can apply a dab of solder at any time in construction to seal.

How do guys attach water to a 2" copper pipe?

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:19 pm

I would do it exactly as you have suggested first and wrap with wet towel prior to solder the guts in the tube. Doesn't take much to keep the solder solid.

Post by **googe** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:24 pm

Nice work again mate

. I agree with belly, wet towels work good!. Wet bread, anything that will stay wet long enough. I always do my hose fittings the same now, cause I use clip on hose ends, I use 2 1/2" joiners soldered straight into t he tube, then a buy a double ended hose joiner and cut it down the centre, it fits perfectly into the joiner, then solder. Your fittings are though. 1/4 should be ok.

Post by **varocketry** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:54 pm

Googe:

I don't follow your explanation of your solution. can you explain in more detail?

1. what's a "clip on hose end" - never heard of that.
2. what is a 2 1/2" joiner
3. What is a double ended hose joiner?

Thanks.

Tokoroa_Shiner · Post by **Tokoroa_Shiner** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:27 pm

1. Clip on hose end, the bit on your hose that allows you to connect it to wall or sprinkler.

2. Two joiners that are 1/2" each.

3. Double ended hose joiner, allows you to join two hose ends together with the normal 'click, type fittings.

Done so that you can connect your water lines to your condenser just as you would to your outside hose tap.

Post by **googe** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:55 pm

Sorry for the thread highjack bigswede!. Like these varocketry, joiner

: 13954674583941.jpg (8.15 KiB) Viewed 6248 times

double ended fitting

: 13954673668620.jpg (6.03 KiB) Viewed 6248 times

Post by **BigSwede** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:16 am

Go for the thread jack please!!

I need ideas. Sometimes, you get stuck in a mental image of how to do something, and it's hard to shake. I'm off to Home Depot (USA big box hardware store) to browse. The store in my town has acetylene. I'm thinking about splurging on an Air/Acetylene rig for some serious heat... tired of whimpy propane.

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:31 am

I've found the easiest way is to use a 2" sanding drum to sand an equivalent radius on the end of a piece of 1/2 copper that will sit right on your 2". solder in place then drill down the middle. That's how I put the input and output on my RIMS tube seen here http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 10&t=46249
once that was soldered, I simply wrapped a wet rage around the base and soldered on the hose nipple. I then continued and soldered up the coupling in the end. The wet rag is enough cooling to keep the input/output from coming desoldered.

Horsecreek shine · Post by **Horsecreek shine** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:01 pm

Nice work man!!

Soggy Bottom Boy · Post by **Soggy Bottom Boy** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:37 pm

For joints that have higher stress levels applied during operation, braze/silver solder those pieces first. Then you can soft solder adjacent joints without the danger of the first joints coming "un-glued", assuming that you control the soldering heat to be lower than brazing temperature.

Post by **BigSwede** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:08 am

Has anyone tried Quick-Disconnect couplers (come in stainless and brass) for condenser water? They come in various sizes, with the most compact at 1/8" pipe thread being only 1.75" long when coupled. Like this:

A condenser could have a pair of either the stem or the coupler portion permanently affixed. Water lines pop on and off in seconds. Helps keep things stealthy and compact.

I know it's total overkill - a vinyl tube hose clamped to a copper stub would work - but it's obvious I'm a fabricator geek. I think these would be both cool and useful.

I'm aiming for 1/4" NPT at a minimum to allow for an adequate water flow.

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:00 pm

I've tried several different versions of those on my brewery and sadly every one leaked. Not badly but the drips were a pain and made a mess. I settled on cam locks and am very happy with them, just wish they had an internal closing mechanism when disconnected.
I think that if I were to go with QDs I would go for the Colder QDs. The brewing world has nothing but great things to say about them.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/defaul ... tcatid=855

Post by **BigSwede** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:14 am

bellybuster wrote:I've tried several different versions of those on my brewery and sadly every one leaked. Not badly but the drips were a pain and made a mess. I settled on cam locks and am very happy with them, just wish they had an internal closing mechanism when disconnected.
I think that if I were to go with QDs I would go for the Colder QDs. The brewing world has nothing but great things to say about them.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/defaul ... tcatid=855

Wow, that is both surprising and sad. I was really interested in them for their convenience. Odd that they'd leak water at only a few PSI, yet deal fine with compressed air or CO2. Maybe it's the type of coupling that REQUIRES higher pressure to seal.

Appreciate the heads up before I blow a chunk of $$ on cheaper Chinese jobs... I'll look at Colder couplers.

I've decided to totally over-engineer the water ports, just for the fun of it. Took a piece of 3/4" Cu round bar, turned two blanks threaded 3/8 MPT, drilled and tapped those for 1/4" FPT. The plan is to rivet a pair of copper doubler plates which will give me the wall thickness I need for the 3/8" MPT Cu ferrules. These get screwed in and soldered as well. Riveting in copper is something not done much any more... It'll give it a steampunk flavor.

bellybuster · Post by **bellybuster** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:34 am

I will say that all of the ones I had only leaked after a while. I'm guessing the orings got compressed after a while. By a while, I mean 2 or 3 brew sessions so as little as a dozen connects/disconnects. I wasn't pleased at all. The ones you show may be better quality.

Litebread · Post by **Litebread** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:07 am

I use cam and groove QD's and love them. Very rugged and industrial grade. Only one easy to service/replace gasket. Industry standard and interchangeable among different manufactures.

All that said, even the small 1/2" connections are a little bulky for connection onto the condensers. I use QD's feeding up to my valve manifold and from there on it's just standard garden hose connections on the condensers and swivels with hosebarbs for the hoses.

Post by **BigSwede** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:21 pm

Got some time to knock this thing out. It's ready to solder.

I went with the basic copper ferrules for water in and out, but I did execute riveted doubler plates. This let me thread the ferrules, so they'll hold themselves in place when the entire thing is at heat to solder all the tubes and end plates, along with the tri-clamp ferrules.

Doubler plates... these have two initial rivet holes drilled, and the rest are center-popped:

Copper rivets. These things are fun to work with. I wrapped this batch up in some stainless steel foil, tossed them in a bench furnace to anneal. It's always fun to see the colors due to heating in an oxygen-void atmosphere. Like little jewels:

Rivets hammered to shape:

The doubler plates were drilled and tapped for 3/8" pipe. Not easy to do because tapered taps really tend to go crooked in what is essentially sheet metal, even doubled, unless forced to go straight. I also splurged on copper ferrules...

All I need to do is squirt some solder into the threads of the water ferrules, and obviously solder up the vapor tubes and big ferrules. The doubler plates themselves are just support.

I should be able to use it for both reflux and collection. It's kind of steam-punkish, but I like it. I've never seen a full-sized, old-school still anywhere,but my guess is they'd use copper rivets extensively to connect huge spun copper portions of boilers and columns. Next up for my modular still is a set of Bokakob slant plates in a section of tube maybe 8" long, also tri-clamped on each end.

Post by **guittarmaster** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:20 pm

Great work so far!!! I really enjoy the boubler plates!

Subscribed!!

Post by **firewater69** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:46 pm

Awesome work Swede! How long have you been doing machine work?

Post by **BigSwede** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:56 am

Hey, thanks guys. Been doing machine work for probably 20 years, but really, the only thing machined on this was the spinning of the inside tubes to make flanges, and the end plates themselves. Everything else is a drill press, files, hammer, etc.

It soldered up well. I'd hate to try and solder one of these when you'd have to protect tubes, connections, ferrules, etc from loosening or falling off. It was hard enough as it was.

It's set aside right now while I'm working on my LM head attachment. Eventually, it'll be either a LM reflux condenser, or a VM or pot still product condenser.

Bob Loblaw · Post by **Bob Loblaw** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:46 am

That is some seriously impressive metal work. Very professional! I'm following because I want to build a flute. I doubt my dephlag and shotgun will look nearly as nice as what you have there.

If you're still looking for coolant connections, I recommend pneumatic push fittings like what I linked below. Available in a variety of sizes (3/8, 1/4"). They work best with HDPE tubing, my experience.

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Pneumatic-T ... B007Q83CVS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Post by **firewater69** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:33 pm

I use those as well,they work good. they also make valves that are great for controlling coolant flow.

Post by **BigSwede** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:35 am

I like those fittings. For air or water, they work well, and the still and condenser can be taken apart with ease without hose clamps, hose barbs, and thick, chunky vinyl tubing.

One thing I'm doing on this build is making it flexible in that way. All ports, inlets, outlets, are female tapered pipe threads. That will let me use just about any fitting imaginable - compression fittings, hose barb, etc - so these would screw right in. I'm still disappointed the stainless quick disconnect couplers I wanted to use apparently leak. I guess they are the sort of fitting that needs significant pressure to force the seal closed.

Scribbler · Post by **Scribbler** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:46 am

Is this thread still live? This is the most beautiful thing I have seen in a long while. I am putting my projects on hold until I figure out how to rework them incorporating some of what I have seen here. I MUST know:

Where did you get those copper fittings at the top and bottom? They look like copper tri-clamp fittings but I've never seen anything like them!! Did you make them?

Post by **bearriver** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:52 am

Scribbler wrote:Is this thread still live? This is the most beautiful thing I have seen in a long while. I am putting my projects on hold until I figure out how to rework them incorporating some of what I have seen here. I MUST know:

Where did you get those copper fittings at the top and bottom? They look like copper tri-clamp fittings but I've never seen anything like them!! Did you make them?

Go read flute talk. You'll have your fill of these kinds of apparatuses. Very cool indeed.

You can buy copper ferrules but your gonna have to search for them.

Scribbler · Post by **Scribbler** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:50 pm

Bearriver (love the name... At first I thought it was "be a river". Hah...

Thanks for the tips. I have already found the copper ferrules!! Odd, I've spent hours looking at SS triclamp parts, but never came across copper ones by accident, until today when searching "copper ferrules".. Never even occurred to me to look for em before!

Just found the flute talk. Odd I hadn't noticed it before.

Scribbler · Post by **Scribbler** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:36 pm

BigSwede: would you be able to share some more details on this build? Here are a few questions:

Your riveted doubler plates: is there solder involved here after riveting? How do you get all the holes sealed? Where can I read up on how to work with those strange (to me) but awesome looking rivets?! I have 2.5 ft of 2" cu pipe but only plan to use 2ft for my shotgun... Would the cutoff piece be a suitable source for the doubler plate?

Your threaded water in/out fittings.. Where did you pick those up from?

Thanks for any spare thoughts you might have!!!

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