The Feints Run Myth

[sltm1]

being a pot still user, I take my feints and mix them with h2o in my thumper. I do believe it's the best way to recoup the alcohol with out any fuss or extra runs. without the thumper my runs start at 120-130, with the feints, usually they start at 160+

[corene1]

mmmmm...so now i need to figure out how big a cooler i need for 7.5 gals of water and ~20 lbs grain....I don't imagine a 10 gal cooler is big enough

I use an igloo cooler for my mashing and 16 pounds of grain and 8 gallons of water takes it to the absolute maximum. So what I do now is put all my hot water and corn in the cooler so it will hold the heat till it is finished then pour all of that into the fermenter and bring down to mashing temperature then add my malted grains for conversion and wrap the fermenter with a blanket to keep it warm. After conversion it is easier to bring down to yeast temperature and I haven't made any overspills from the igloo.

[8 Mile Hillbilly]

I run my sweet feed, keep the best hearts for Whiskey at 60% and then run all the rest in the reflux for 194% neutral

[thecroweater]

Off topic
yeah worked it out 3 posts in and so stayed clear, get ya meaning woodshed I was a construction supervisor and 2 IC at a young age, had to learn to deal with alot of workers and subbies that were mostly bigger and older than me, had to flatten a few to but always tried to reason to their better nature first. until recently i was a mod on another distilling forum, liked and respected by some and loathed by others, an entitlement mentality, will ruin the experience for some members, pity but that's how it goes
Ok back on topic :
yeah Its been my experience that rum faints don't run so good with others for a neutral, I've never been able to fully eliminate that molasses flavour even at azeo, it could be my methods but I know others that have found the same thing. My rum faints go back into a rum charge and if I think my faints are growing some of my heads go to fores and shut down so as to leave the worst of tails in the boiler (not in to rum oils )

[thecroweater]

Recycle feints in the strip or spirit runs. No need to toss them, no need to do an all feints run either, though some people may like that.
Personally, with a pot still, I believe feints should go in the spirit run.

lol..u folks crack me up. Feints are rejected spirits. Y do you believe they will improve with another run? I spent the better part of a day and a whole lotta fuel running the feints. Got better things to do with my time and fuel. Frankly, I think those that toss their feints into the next run are fooling themselves...it's not adding flavor, only consuming fuel.

With all due respect, I don't concur with that sentiment. The thread title isn't a question its a statement and a false statement at that and when more experienced members tried to point out why the OP came out with retorts like the above reply exposing his lack cognizance to what faints consist of and how they came to be faints. He got a poor result (for what ever reason) and decided that everyone else was wrong and attempted to shoot down any opposing opinion. if members don't take to task such threads very soon the forum would be full of given members conclusions however false and misleading they are and that is not acceptable

[thecroweater]

yeah a friend of mine (emptyglass) tried aging late heads and early tails to get it drinkable. After several yrs it was unchanged so he did a faints run, this was all UJSM and turned out dandy. Different from his normal UJ for sure but just as good if not better so i don't get the whole sugarhead faints are only good for neutral thing

[HookLine]

Maybe sugarhead doesn't make for good all feints runs.

My all feints runs worked out, both pot and reflux runs. Possibly because they were made using feints left over from full flavour rum or whisky runs.

Try refluxing feints to 93-94 %abv, cleans them up nicely, and still has plenty of good flavour. Some of my favourite stuff comes from refluxing feints like that, especially for rum.

Lot of tasty booze left in feints (from flavoured spirit runs), that you worked hard to make. Don't waste it.

[Doogie]

I disagree with the OP about the use of feints. I only recycle tails, and I find it adds not really much in flavor (since I cut off hearts production early), but it adds a lot of volume to the subsequent production runs. I can typically improve volumes by 30-50% (cuts dependent) for 2-3 runs before I notice I have too many feints to process or that the off flavors are pushing thru too much, using a sugar wash

That is with a pot still, and that 30-50% is of course compounded with run #3 - so say 2L of hearts, 3.5-4L of hearts, 5-6L of hearts for a total of max 12L of hearts around 80% ABV over 3 runs ... of course, if all fermentations go well, yada, yada, so yes, I will not toss my tails down the drain thank-you ...

[Bushman]

I agree with Hookline as some of my best stuff has come from an all feints run but Doogie brings up a good point as there is a diminishing return thus at some point I you can't keep running feints. This is the time for finding another use, cleaning solvent, recipe someplace I posted about mixing it with other products for windshield wiper cleaner...ect.

[Dan P.]

Well, I'll say reading the various replies (the ones that are on topic, not the clucking of irate hens) it seems that a number of people might sort of agree with the OP, in that it is fairly common for people to recycle their feints through a column to make neutral, and I can certainly see how to some hypothetical person a distillate using only the original wash would be somehow preferable to one using feints. So, different strokes for different folks. And I can see as a new distiller that one might get frustrated and just proclaim something as bullshit, when it could have better been stated as "this isn't for me". Maybe recycling feints isn't for everyone, let alone an all feints run.
Personally, what I do, if I have made a recipe that I do not intend to repeat, and want to use up the feints, I will take a super tight hearts cut from the feints, and add it back to the initial distillate. Seems to work okay.

And lastly, I know I really shouldn't write this, because it really doesn't matter, BUT... no matter how strongly you state that you are not just a keyboard warrior but actually a straight-shooting tough guy in real life too, there is no reason whatsoever anyone should believe you. And the laws of probability suggest that you shouldn't be believed.

[googe]

Nicely said mate . My bum is puckering just thinking about that

[Dan P.]

I always throw my feints into the next run of the same recipe, but I've read here and there that after a couple runs you should toss em? Aren't they always refreshed after mixing and running with a new batch?

I believe they can be recycled eternally, refreshed each time as you suggest, unless they are feints from the "mythical" feints run, in which case you might not want to re-use them. Or you might.

[googe]

Maybe someone should run feints over and over and see what happens?. I'm sure many here do it to just suck all the alc out, or for flavor. But has anyone kept running them over and over?, does it clarify and go beyond what we are lead to believe. The plot thickens

[Dan P.]

Maybe someone should run feints over and over and see what happens?. I'm sure many here do it to just suck all the alc out, or for flavor. But has anyone kept running them over and over?, does it clarify and go beyond what we are lead to believe. The plot thickens

You mean as all feints or as added to a run in the "traditional" sense?

I haven't ever run the same recipe enough times to go beyond four or five generations of re-running feints in spirit runs, but it is routinely done in the production of malt scotch, for example.
I'm pretty sure running an all feints run over and over is not going to get you too far. The alcohol will run out, for starters.

[googe]

I mean, get feints from what ever run, and just keep running it till nothing happens, what you get, can it be used for flavoring?, who knows what.

[Dan P.]

I mean, get feints from what ever run, and just keep running it till nothing happens, what you get, can it be used for flavoring?, who knows what.

That's an idea. What I've done in the past is an all feints run and add it back to the initial product. Kind of like a triple distillation.
I think to make a "flavouring" type thing, you would need to not water it back down to charge strength, or water it down minimally, to minimalize "hydroseperation".
Over and over till nothings left? Might work, but there's probably a reason it's not done.
Personally, I see little need to worry about it, as my feints already have a good use.

[Jimbo]

But has anyone kept running them over and over?, does it clarify and go beyond what we are lead to believe. The plot thickens

My vodka started its life as a hodgepodge of stuff. A lot of it random feints. I ran it 5 times (potstill) and have what I consider a nice vodka. Neutralish but some flavor still.

[Prairiepiss]

I have said it many times. And it works great for me.

I make very tight hearts cuts. Tossing everything else in the feints jug. Excluding foreshots. When I get enough for a 10 gal at 30% to 40% run. I reflux the crap out of it. It gives me some really good neutral/vodka. And I normally get between 1.5 and 2.5 gal of good clean 95% out of it.

That's 1.5 to 2.5 gal of 95% ABV I would be tossing down the drain.

But these results will all depend on the cuts made on the first go around. If you can't get a good usable product from an all feints run. Using feints from a pot still. Or any flavored spirits run with a reflux still. You are not making as tight of a hearts cut as you think. Yes feints from a reflux still will have less usable product then a pot still. But there will still be some there.

Everyone has a preferred method of doing it. What works for me maynot work for others. You just have to figure out what works for you.

[Hound Dog]

I have said it many times. And it works great for me.

I make very tight hearts cuts. Tossing everything else in the feints jug. Excluding foreshots. When I get enough for a 10 gal at 30% to 40% run. I reflux the crap out of it. It gives me some really good neutral/vodka. And I normally get between 1.5 and 2.5 gal of good clean 95% out of it.

That's 1.5 to 2.5 gal of 95% ABV I would be tossing down the drain.

But these results will all depend on the cuts made on the first go around. If you can't get a good usable product from an all feints run. Using feints from a pot still. Or any flavored spirits run with a reflux still. You are not making as tight of a hearts cut as you think. Yes feints from a reflux still will have less usable product then a pot still. But there will still be some there.

Everyone has a preferred method of doing it. What works for me maynot work for others. You just have to figure out what works for you.

Well said.

[Dan P.]

I have said it many times. And it works great for me.

I make very tight hearts cuts. Tossing everything else in the feints jug. Excluding foreshots. When I get enough for a 10 gal at 30% to 40% run. I reflux the crap out of it. It gives me some really good neutral/vodka. And I normally get between 1.5 and 2.5 gal of good clean 95% out of it.

That's 1.5 to 2.5 gal of 95% ABV I would be tossing down the drain.

But these results will all depend on the cuts made on the first go around. If you can't get a good usable product from an all feints run. Using feints from a pot still. Or any flavored spirits run with a reflux still. You are not making as tight of a hearts cut as you think. Yes feints from a reflux still will have less usable product then a pot still. But there will still be some there.

Everyone has a preferred method of doing it. What works for me maynot work for others. You just have to figure out what works for you.

So, PP, you don't recycle your feints in either spirit or strip runs of wash of the same ingredient (i.e. feints from a barley spirit run used with fresh barley singlings), but instead just reflux them?
If I've got that right, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on why you do this.

[bearriver]

@Dan: He explained the answers to your questions in the quote you posted. In very good detail too... He does it because it works for him. Pretty simple.

Using that method one gets a full measure of well cut whiskey (or whatever), then the remainder is squeezed out as neutral. There is little to no waste, and it all gets drank. Boy howdy...

[Dan P.]

@Dan: He explained the answers to your questions in the quote you posted. In very good detail too... He does it because it works for him. Pretty simple.

Using that method one gets a full measure of well cut whiskey (or whatever), then the remainder is squeezed out as neutral. There is little to no waste, and it all gets drank. Boy howdy...

No, he didn't.

But, it would have been better to pose my question so as to ask why PP doesn't recycle feints in the traditional manner. I'm curious, so I ask.

[bearriver]

My bad, Guess I misunderstood your question...

I would speculate he does this because of consistency. You shouldn't have an unsatisfactory feints run if you reflux the ish out of it to get a neutral. Plus you only need one feints vessel, instead of 15 carboys all half full of segregated feints from this or that.

[Prairiepiss]

I usually do flavored spirits. Rum and whiskey. I do a single run with my fu man one plate. Comes out between 80% and 90% ABV. Depending on what I am making. And what I want it to end up like.

I toss all foreshots. And I make a rather large foreshots cut. 400 to 600 ml per 10 to 12 gal batch.

I keep only the middle hearts. For drinking. I may add a touch of some heads and tails? Usually a small amount of the mid to late tails. Where the good stuff is. But if a jar even hints that it is heads or tails. It goes to the side. After I blend in the very little amounts of heads and tails into my drink. The rest goes into the feints jug. I also don't stop collecting tails on this run. Til they are coming off around 20%. Depends LM how I'm feeling that day. I may and have gone down to 10%. I will explain why later.

When I have collected around 5 to 6 gallons of feints. I do a all feints run. The way I run things. This usually ends up diluted to 35% +or- 5% and gives me 10 to 12 gallons to run. Really I just dump it in the boiler. Add 5 gallons of water. And take a test sample. And adjust ABV from there. To what ever feels right that day.

I then run it off at 95% ABV though the fu man. Again making a large foreshots cut. And only keeping the really good hearts. Since the feints are a good mix of both whiskey and rum. What I get out has some really nice notes from both. It's not exactly a perfect neutral. But then again I don't like perfect pure neutral. I like something that has character. More of what I call an old school vodka. Something I can use to make flavored drinks like firepiss. Or drink it straight and still like it. All the feints from this run are done. I consider them to be squeezed out. So they go with the foreshots to be used elsewhere.

Why do I do it like this. Short answer is. Because it works. It gives me in my opinion the best use of the alcohol that I am fermenting.
Long answer. It allows me to make some fine whiskey and rum. Brandy if I could get my hands on fruit cheap. And I also get my vodka/neutral needs fulfilled. Without the need of making neutral or vodka specific ferments. Tying up fermenter space. So I'm getting a two for one out of my ferments. And get two products that I like.

Now my thoughts on feints and are they just tails or heads and tails. And what not.
Some say feints are tails only. Ok most say this. That's where they got their name. Feints. They faintly resemble alcohol. That is all fine and dandy if you are jot using the term tails. Which most all of us here use. So now we use tails to name the alcohols that come off after the hearts. So personaly I feel feints better describes all but the hearts. Because in reality they all (heads and tails) faintly resembles the alcohol we are making. But like many things in this hobby. Everyone will have differing opinions on this. Which brings me to my next explanation.

Which to keep heads or tails?
Some only keep the heads for the next run. Or whatever they do with them. This is mostly the pure neutral distillers. That think the bad tastes of the tails is not good for a neutral. But doesn't the heads taste like crap too? I don't get it. But maybe some of you do?

Some only keep the tails for the next run. Or whatever they do with them. This is mostly the flavor makers. Pot still rum and whiskey makers. There's good flavors in them thar tails. But the heads are crap. Again I don't understand the reasoning. I just read it a lot.

I on the other hand don't look at it as much for the flavor aspect of it. I am looking at the good alcohol content aspect. There's a lot of good alcohol in them thar feints. So how do I extract it the best way possible? Well let's see here. There is good alcohol in the heads. If I did a all heads run. Let's look at the progression of what comes off the still. Of course the fores come off first. Yes there are fores in every run. You can't convince me otherwise. Then comes the heads. Well yea its an all heads run. Of course there will be heads. Then comes the hearts. The stuff we are after. But wait the amount of tails in an all heads run. Will be very little. And most likely be left in the boiler. Along with some of the good hearts that you wanted to extract. Because we all know we can't extract all the alcohol. Some has to be left behind in the boiler. So really you just screwed the efficiency of the whole thing. And lost what you were after in the first place.

Ok let's look at an all tails run. Just the opposite of the above. The hearts are going to try to come off at the beginning of the run. Because there are very little fires and heads contained in the tails. So now you are tossing good hearts out at the beginning of the run.

Now if you mix the heads and tails. You get a greater amount of good hearts. And you get the needed sacrificial fores/heads coming off in the beginning. And the sacrificial tails that can be left in the boiler. Allowing you to collect the most amount of hearts as efficiently as you can. Doing it correctly for the equipment you are using. To get something you like. Is key here. Knowing your still is a must. If you don't know your still. How do you expect it to work for you? A little more about this in a bit.

Now let's look at adding the feints to the next run.
Again same as above. Some add only heads and other only tails. Same reasons from above. Heads for neutral guys and tails for flavor guys. And again I don't get it but to each their own.

Heads additions. How many times can you add heads from the previous runs. Before you have to much heads? They don't magicly disappear. And they can only get concentrated down so much. So now you need to start tossing out more and more foreshots each time. To get rid of the buildup of heads that aren't wanted in the first place.
Now what does those heads do to the flavors? Personaly I would rather drink tails then heads. I find heads to be repulsive in flavor. And you are adding a concentrated repulsive flavor to a good flavored ferment. It has to influence the flavor outcome. You can't tell me it won't.
Sure by adding the heads it will raise the ABV of the boiler charge. Allowing you to collect at a higher ABV then without them. But at what cost? Flavor? And how much extra did you really get out of it. From the heads of a single run? Some swear by this. Again to each their own.

Adding only tails to the next run. Do I really need to type this out? I think you can figure out what I'm gona say about that. The only difference is I like the flavors of tails much better then heads.

Adding both heads and tails to the next run. Same points as above. But I can see where this would be a little more beneficial for a pot stiller looking for some good flavors. And maybe a little higher ABV output. You will still need to take a higher amount of foreshots. To compensate for the buildup of heads. And stop collecting earlier to compensate for the buildup of tails. Many have done this for years. And like the outcome. Just remember. What you get from running it like this. Will be different then that you get from running just a fresh ferment. If used proper it can enhance the flavors. If don't wrong well you will be running it again.

Knowing your still. My first still. Plain ol cm still. In order for my method to work good. I needed to run the feints through in pot still. A couple times. Diluting with clean water each time. Then running it though in reflux mode. I found with fu man this was no longer needed. And I could get a great product off an all feints run in a single run. In the earlier days I took a lot away from BigR's pot still feints run thread. If you have not read it. You should.
Feints & Pot Stills http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=24388
This gave me my base method. But I was running a reflux still. So I adapted it to fit my still. And what gave me the best outcome. But in order to do that. You need to know your still. Only way to do that. Is experiment. See what works and what doesn't.

I maynot understand your methods. And or why you do things your way. Just like I don't know your tastes. So I can't say how you deal with feints is wrong. But I can say if you don't experiment with different methods. And find what works for you. You are doing yourself harm. Because there is good alcohol in them thar feints. You just need to figure out the best method to extract them. With your equipment. That will make a good drop for your tastes. I post my methods only to give others ideas of how to experiment further. So that they can possibly improve their own methods.

I have experimented with about every method I have read here and other places. I am not a pot stiller. Nor am I a highly efficiently reflux neutral making man. I run a single plate with a packed section hybrid cm still. If I was a pot stillin man. I would be following BigR's foot prints. If I was a neutral making man. I would more then likely be doing the same thing I am now. Just depending on how efficiently my reflux still was. Some designs and operators. Can compress the heads and tails so much. An all feints run wouldn't give you enough to even worry about. Again know your still. Think of your still as a race car. Or a gun. You need to get very in tune with it. Make it an extension of yourself. If you race a car. You need to know every little quirk about it. Shift when this happens. Floor it when I'm in this situation. Or you aren't gona get around that guy in front of you. If you carry a gun. If you don't know where the safety is. And can find it in pitch dark. With your eyes closed. You are gona fumble around when you really need to be in Target. And most likely be on the floor. On a still. If you don't know the quirks. Like it runs best with this amount of power. Putting out this ABV. At this rate. From this ABV wash. You won't know how to adjust it to get the best out of it. Run it to hot get hearts in your heads tails in your hearts. Run it to slow smearing heads into the hearts and hearts into tails. And all these parameters change for each imputed parameter changed. Something as small as a fan running in the corner. Could change the outcome.

I'm getting way off here. If you take anything from the post. Make it. Know your still. And experiment until its an extension of yourself.

[Jimbo]

P wins the longest post of the month award.

[Prairiepiss]

P wins the longest post of the month award.

I could have gone longer. But I was getting tired of typing all that crap on my phone. LOL

[Scribbler]

Prairiepiss:thanks. Lots to absorb. Gonna have to bookmark it and read it a few times.

Q= if the heads and tails become concentrated over time do you think it would make the transitions easier to identify? This might be a good way for a fng to get better at detection. I'm afraid I may have a palette that is challenged by subtlety.and possibly lacking in discernment. Two things suggest this:

1) my dad is a wine-grape grower out east. On a recent visit, he brought an $11 bottle of merlot, and $35 merlot. Did a blind tasting with numbered samples of each. Took several breaks during the test, but damnit if I didn't prefer the $11 merlot EVERY single time!

2) people here say that with practice, home distillers will produce better product than the commercial ones... I dunno man... I sure do enjoy glenfiddich and bushmills! Never thought I tasted anything poor there... Is that something I might notice with experience?

[Prairiepiss]

They get concentrated to a certain extent. The transitions between heads hearts and tails. Pretty much say the same. So no it doesn't make cuts easier.

Knowing where to make cuts. Is a learned pallet. It takes time to learn. Like your merlot. You don't drink it every day. So its hard to distinguish the differences. If you drank merlot a lot. You would know the differences.

At first I had a really hard time with the cuts. Everyone does. My palette really sucks and I smoke. But after doing it so many times. I can easily distinguish the cuts. Hell If you opened a jar of spirits in front of me. I could tell by the smell what was in it.

The more you do it. The better you will be. And the more you will find out how awful store bought crap is.

[Scribbler]

Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers!

[Dan P.]

PP, thank you for your informative post!